The Spectrasonics and Spitfire licenses seem to be trying to prohibit users from selling “pure sounds” as opposed to “music” you make with the VST.
It’s an awkward line to draw and there’s a ton of gray area that would make those terms difficult to interpret.
But you answered your question in your first post.
If there’s nothing in the EULA that prohibits it, it’s not prohibited. That’s how contracts work, and it’s why you do find it in the other EULAs.
You’re right, though my initial reason for posting was that since there was no mention of this in the EULA I was worried I might’ve been looking at the wrong EULA, or that there was some another document listing limitations.
There could be for other devices. For example, I’m totally unsure what license applies to the Splice samples included with the Model:Samples. My assumption is that I’m probably violating a copyright if I were to try to sell or otherwise redistribute the bare samples but that I can sell or distribute anything I make with them. But there’s nothing about it in the user manual and I can’t find anything resembling a EULA anywhere.
…u have the right to sell any of ur musical results made from anything…
…u don’t have the right to make any preset sounds nothing but another preset sound selection product…simple as that…always…everywhere…
create something vs. just copy/repack something…
I’m sorry but this is clearly false, as shown by the examples above. Many things are distributed with samples and demos which you are not allowed to use for commercial purposes. Just because it would be convenient doesn’t mean it’s true, you always have to check the license for everything you use, and the licenses differ by quite a lot. A good example is all the demo content in FL Studio, which I’m pretty sure a ton of people would just remix, but it is explicitly prohibited to do that.
Oh man, let’s all look forward to the day when an instrument manufacturer owns a percentage of whatever output is created with it.
…if ur into selling sonic puzzle pieces as a product, as tools to work with for others to get creative, but ur “product” is all just made from another sonic puzzle pieces “product”…those guys can sue u for selling the “same” product…their product in first place…
but if ur into selling a sonic creation of whatsoever made with heavy loads of those sonic puzzles pieces u purchased as a product, u might be not the most innovative, but ur always good to go…
This isn’t true. You’re saying it as “this would make sense”, but unless the license allows it you can’t sell derivative work, no matter how much you change it. Copyright doesn’t distinguish “common sense”, derivative work is still derivative work. You do not own the samples/presets/loops that come with a product, the creator owns them, and unless they give you explicit permission your usage of them is derivative work and breaches copyright.
It doesn’t matter if it’s “commonly done” or if it’s “inconvenient”, the person/company providing you with content you base your derivative work off needs to give you an explicit permission to do so. Otherwise it’s illegal and they can sue you.
edit: Maybe I should add, this can also become a huge problem if you sell your samples to someone else under a license you’re not allowed to use, and they use it to create say a product that competes with Elektron. Now Elektron sees their competition using their own samples and sues them, who in turn point in your direction because of a indemnification in your contract with them.
Would this happen? Maybe unlikely, but if you’re at all considering to sell your samples/loops and not just make music it’s absolutely essential that you know you have the rights to do so. Otherwise you risk getting in huge trouble if anyone who bought your samples uses them in a significant way.
very interesting thread, thank you for sharing your research with us
@potatoson …excuse me, but, any “company” that sells u content for creation is SELLING U CONTENT for UR creation…nobody can sue u for any copyright protection abuse, if u used their product for producing a track of ur own, end of the day…that’s what u paid for…
that’s the whole common sense and basic bottomline of that whole business…
selling soundpacks and samples to be used and abused by their COSTUMERS…
show me one midi pack or whatsoever company that states in their license agreements, yes buy our shit, but hey, u can’t use it for what it’s made for later on…so sorrrrry, but thanx for ur bux anyways…enjoy ur hobby…
while sure…u can’t buy presets to then just sell them as the same fuking presets again…
but that’s obvious…innit?
imagine native instruments would start to sue everybody that obviosly used their preset stuff from their komplete collection…or elektron, cause u used preset nr. 133 from their dtone lead preset list in a composition of urs…i can assure u, will NEVER happen…
You’re trying to interpret it with common sense, but that’s not how law works. There is a reason why people say you have to read the terms and conditions. There are many cases where things come with presets/samples where you are even explicitly prohibited from using those in various ways.
For example:
Just last week I was reading about a case of someone getting a copyright strike on Youtube for creating a derivative track from the demo samples that came with Maschine. In this case they even had legal rights to do so (as per the license), but that’s not how copyright law works. They have to defend themselves. In this case it was the composer who got the strike, which means they could contact Youtube with proof of purchase and probably get it resolved.
But imagine you get paid to compose something for someone, you use say a preset arpeggio (or a loop or something) that is also used in a popular song, and the publisher of that song marks your song as in breach of copyright. They would then have to contact you, and you would have to resolve it for them. You likely wouldn’t be in “legal” trouble, but that person might never work with you again.
The above example with NI is just one of many. Copyright strikes happen, and while you may be legally in the right, that doesn’t mean you’re “problem free”. You keep arguing with common sense, but again, these days companies use automated systems to detect these things. It’s not as simple as “you copied a 20 second loop from spotify and re-posted it”.
“Not guilty, your honor. A guy on the internet assured me it could never happen.”
I’m all seriousness, sounds are work. Sounds published in a preset library are published work. You don’t have the right to publish or profit off other peoples’ published work, in part or whole, unless explicitly granted permission. If that permission has not been granted, by default you lose.
But let’s say “it never happens” or “I trust Elektron not to do that” or whatever. Okay. Now imagine electron goes out of business and is bough by the most unethical money grubbing litigious corporation you can think of. Guess who owns all those sounds and gets to sue you now?
The only protection from this is to already have an agreement in place before the company is bought. Make sure you have the explicit, written right to use everything you use in the ways you use it. Anything else is playing with fire.
I choose not to live in fear of imagined ominous omnipresent forces with endless resources to do evil. Come on man
I guess we can just wait and see what happens, because there was at least one Digitakt sample pack posted here that contained some Digitone factory presets.
I didn’t call out that person because it’s not my job and I don’t know what stance Elektron takes in these matters.
But the risk alone is enough for me to never use sample packs and create every synth preset from scratch. It also makes you a better sound designer in the long run.
The only external samples I use are drum samples and loops. But those were made to be used in music productions and of course will never end up in a sample pack if I made one.
The other thing you can easily get away with(and many producers do), is using movie samples.
There are so many drum ‘n’ bass, jungle and hardcore records that use pieces of dialog from movies it’s impossible to keep count.
edit: Blatant example(the title is actually from the dialog, guess which movie 
):
https://youtu.be/7lQEmnWvVuI?t=152
The worst thing that can happen if you use the wrong sample in your own productions is having to forfeit all profit made with those and stop selling it. If you keep selling it after the original content owner made objections, you’re in trouble.
Source: A masterclass from a well known hardcore(the rave/gabber kind) producer who dealt with this problem.
Selling a sample pack that uses samples from another sample pack is a whole 'nother story though.
I remember a case about a sample library company selling an existing Kontakt string library, the only thing they did was open the reverb on Kontakt and sampling it.
Needless to say this ended in a lawsuit and that company going out of business.
I don’t have a link for this though, the story seems to be scrubbed from the internet somehow.
@potatoson
You’re wrong about Spectrasonics.
Of course you can’t redistribute the included samples or presets, but everything made with the synth engine is free game including sound effects.
From the Spectrasonics site:
Am I allowed to distribute music samples I’ve made using the factory libraries in my Spectrasonics Instruments?
Yes, you can distribute your music however you like. This includes any and all types of music distribution as audio files, whether presented in mixes, multitracks or stems. The only exception is if these audio files are to be embedded in other software or hardware, which would require clearance with us.
Am I allowed to distribute sound samples of my own original patches made with my Spectrasonics Instruments?
If your patches created in Spectrasonics Virtual Instruments are based on our copyrighted soundsources, the answer would be NO in those cases. In the case of original user patches created solely with the DSP oscillators in the synthesizer section of Omnisphere (i.e using NO SAMPLES) or from the user’s own audio, this is permissible and not a problem. Please contact us if you have any questions.
source: Spectrasonics - Knowledgebase
Living in fear of imagined ominous omnipresent forces with endless resources to do evil is called “being a contract lawyer”. The law, as has been pointed out, doesn’t work on common sense, but rather the cold, hard application of logic. So you can’t think about “what’s the spirit of this contract?” you have to think “what’s the most cynical way this can be interpreted?”
Because that most cynical take? Perfectly legal. And if there’s money behind it, that’s all the motivation needed for someone to try it. One doesn’t need to posit an omnipresent evil org.
Our own history is littered with examples of classic synth names being bought up by faceless, profit driven corporations for the value of the name, only. It’s not hard to imagine one of them thinking they could make more money suing for use of unlicensed material than manufacturing and shipping boxes of transistors.
If the contract enumerating our rights to use presets and samples (that is, the license) isn’t specific enough or (for shame) doesn’t exist, someone will try to take advantage of that at some point.
Remember SCO Group? Respectable operation that fell on hard times and pivoted to suing everyone that ever used Linux because copyright of 200 files hadn’t been properly sorted. Those files are not in any meaningful way different from presets.
Yes but are those sample packs you’re selling created from Elektron’s own samples or are they your own creation?
…still talking about same things here?
if ur into selling sample packs, u better make sure U crafted that content…and it’s original…
that’s what the whole preset business is MADE FOR…and if u sell sample content from others as urs, that’s a clear copyright issue…sure.
but if ur into selling/publishing UR music, MADE out of such sample packs u officially purchased, or with electronic instruments u own, bought them as ur sonic tools to DO so, then THAT’s what u do…and that’s what that is MADE FOR…no one will stop u…
cheating music via using demo tracks and demo patterns is, of course, not UR music…that’s the creation of others again…and sure they can sue u…but they won’t, in most cases, since that’s total hobby level scrubbing right there…
and there’s no copyright protection for such things like gun shots…
but for fuks sake…don’t use any presets or buy any sample pax in first place…come up with ur own and just write original music…my goodness…
or just have fun and let it be ur hobby…no business intentions, no fear of getting sued…
I think you mean, “As long as no one decides to stop you.” Because if you are using presets or samples in your music and if purchasing those presets or samples did not grant a royalty free license for their use in creating music, the copyright owner is within their rights to stop you. And if they decide to, they will prevail in court.
If you want to roll the dice, you do you. But it’s irresponsible pretend like it can’t happen or that someone who wants to be sure they have license is silly to be looking into it.
Things like this don’t just become court cases, they start with a cease and desist letter.
Only if you don’t comply with that it can come to a court case.
At most you lose the profit made with selling that music, and that’s direct sales only.
That profit does not include live performances most of the time, at least here it doesn’t.
That stuff has to be proven in a court case. So unless you’re famous and made a lot of money on the music it’s very unlikely that it ever comes to that.
Any lawyers in here?