Debate on unintended racism

Again, I agree the image is problematic. We’ve already covered this. We disagree over a very minute point about whether the meaning of an image should be interpreted from its form or its intent. Your argument seems to be that if it bears sufficient resemblence to a racist image, then it must be considered racist. My argument is that I’d rather just say that it bears resemblance to a racist image and not present further speculations as absolutes.

These are subjective opinions, to which we are both entitled.

The examples I’ve given are hypotheticals, and I was hoping for genuine answers to them. I’m trying to extrapolate the nuanced points of this disagreement to other scenarios so we can discuss them. I think there is a fine line here between potential censorship, or the supression of a free and open discourse. People need to be able to communicate without fear of persecution by those who may misinterpret them. This extends well into art, music, dialogue and all other forms of communicaiton and media. There needs to be a line, and as far as I can see, the most sensible place to draw that line is with the author’s intent. If you have another suggestion, I am genuinely interested in hearing it, but please don’t take my criticism of your ideas to mean I am against you. I believe we’re on the same side, but that we have different perspectives, and that’s ok.

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As a moderator, I put this discussion aside because some messages like yours above, or @swanage_fan’s or @TRAINTRACS’ were lacking some respect.
Whatever your feelings are, aggression and anger are not ways to make people understand something they don’t.
I use (way too much of) my spare time to try and make this place the best for everyone, at least respect this, even if you don’t agree with me.

I can’t bear racism, and my reaction to blatant racism is immediate. Being targeted at coloured people, asian or whatever their skin color is.
That I can’t see why the imagery used is anti-semitic shows that not everyone share your point of view in this subject.
And I am trully wishing to be demonstrated your point of view.


Now comparing the image above with the one shown by Adam’s, I can’t see much similarities… Maybe in the nasty smile, but definitely not in the nose, that is clearly Pinocchio’s.
What I can remember from nazism and anti-jew imagery is that the nose was precisely the “obvious” way for nazis to depict a Jew.
So no, it doesn’t seem that obvious to me that the drawing is referencing anti-jew propaganda. I admit I am no expert, but I am a bit educated and it doesn’t jump to my eyes.

IMO the unintended possibly antisemitic nature of this harassment shouldn’t be the main point: that the video got published is unacceptable.

You, in the other hand, seem pretty offended by this discussion, to the point that you totally lack of respect. How can you be fighting for respect if you don’t show some yourself?

Please underline where I’m being offensive, cause I have never tried to be. I can use words of which I don’t really measure the depth, as English is not my mother language. Sorry if it’s the case, it was never my intention.
My grandparents were 20 when the nazis came to their home. I can’t bear what nazis did to humanity, being French, Gipsy or Jewish.

Thank you dear, you made me laugh and indeed it’s important to take some perspective ^^

This exactly.
Let’s get a bit measured in our words. Please.

[farting reverberates from every corner of the cosmos. the very fabric of reality is now vibrating. you are farting in the face of god]

Why the noise?
If you don’t like it here, you may leave.

this simplistic kind of free-speech absolutism is just nonsense. no-one has the right to be protected from the consequences of saying stupid or offensive things, especially to a massive audience

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I think you just have to accept that while you do not see it, others do see, in the cartoon, enough similarities to existing, offensive imagery.

And that your logical arguments against the depiction of the nose, and what not are still subjective to the extent that they do not overcome the similarities that others see.

We’re all on the same side here, we just need to imagine others’ perspectives.

It is too unfortunate B didn’t take the time to imagine others’ perspectives, also.

I like where this is going. You’re levelling up. Next we need multiverse farts, or time-traversing farts.

We’re not talking about free speech though, we’re talking about hate speech, which is not protected under free speech. If you’re going to call this racist, you are therefore labeling it as hate speech, which can reasonably be supressed. That is my concern.

It’s one thing when idiots parade around free speech thinking it’s a silver bullet to allow them to say wahtever hurtful or inflammatory shit they want without consequence, I agree. Words can have consequences, and that’s fine.

Hate speech and racism is different though, and can be considered criminal, so where do we draw that line?

this, in particular, is facile. there is absolutely no equivalence between, on the one hand, doing something racist, and on the other hand, being somewhat snippy to someone for resolutely and deliberately failing to grasp a simple point. the idea that leftists/antiracists have some obligation to be “nice” - lest we be somehow “as bad as the other guys” - is bollocks

At the risk of ending up in an infinite loop, endlessly repeating the same basic sentence to an ocean of people who refuse to engage with the actual point:

As for the stuff about politeness: the reason I’m getting annoyed is because I have had to be confronted by racist imagery, and in attempting to highlight that racism to a community of people who celebrate and support the company responsible for producing it, have been repeatedly told that I’m wrong, that I’m over-sensitive, that it’s not racist, that I’m being racist, that it doesn’t matter, that it’s a joke, that it’s off-topic, that I should lighten up, that I should prioritise being polite over speaking truthfully about the fact that this self-evidently racist thing is in fact racist.

I really really really am going to stop replying now, but please, PLEASE for the love of God take a look at yourself, at the arguments you’re putting forward and the listening that you’re refusing to do, at the principles you’re prioritising and the ones you’re ignoring.

If you’re unwilling to do that, then I really don’t know what else I can say.

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none of this is relevant, sorry

I’ve not said any of that stuff to you at all, for the record. I’ve been trying to understand your perspective this whole time, whilst offering my own. I appreciate it’s a delicate subject, but how are we ever supposed to actually progress as a society if people can’t articulate their views effectively without getting upset and typing in capital letters when they are challenged?

Your contributions to this entire discussion have been pretty lacklustre tbh. I’m not convinced you even have any opinions of your own, other than those driven by emotional impulse. At the very least, you’ve done an awful job of persuading me of anything.

I had missed that part.

OK, point taken, this cartoon might indeed be taken by some as referring some dark times of the history.
I still believe that you’re wrong on the nose part, but just revisiting such disgusting propaganda to find examples that illustrate my point makes me want to puke. Mostly because it shows some new use of these images, or more recent memes… and we’ve been through this already as mods. I just can’t stand that some people today still have such ideas. Now I want to shout as you did. It’s fucking horrible.


image

image

So OK, I understand you point of view, thank you for calmly taking the time to show me how I am wrong in the way I consider the whole affair.
Sorry for being this slow.

You guys and this bloody doomed internet convinced me.

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For the record, I wasn’t replying directly to you. But also, for the record, you’ve done several of the things on that list, and at least one of them in the very reply in which you’re claiming not to. That your first reaction to someone describing the mental and emotional toll you & others have taken on them is to say “oh but of course I didn’t do that” really rather sums up the approach you’ve taken throughout.

Of course, I’m sure you’ll now demand that I show you what those things are, explain in painstaking detail exactly how and why what you’ve said has been so frustrating, so belittling, so unhelpful, so contrary to the principles of left-wing solidarity and the free exchange of ideas you claim to support.

But honestly, HO-NEST-LY I am done now. Again, hope you’re really proud of the positions you’ve taken in this conversation, and the effect they’ve had on people.

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“You’re being emotional” - Debate Bro Proverb

bye

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In all seriousness: thank you. I know it’s not easy to accept when you’ve missed something, genuinely very grateful that you’ve been open to listening and acknowledging stuff.

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