Expressive E Osmose

The Lounge Other Gear
#1819

Thank you for the detailed perspective, and I am glad you could relate. Well, to answer that, I would definitely like to improve my keyboard skills, but I am also a guy that would love to try new things. I think my justification is that, though Continuum looks like a new instrument, it does have a keyboard layout of notes, so it won’t be totally new. I just looked up Eigenharp, no, it would totally put me off just because it totally looks like a new instrument.

thanks for mentioning that. This is something to think about for me. Even though I like to try new things, I have been learning recently that being good at one thing can be a good thing. I am jack of all trades, sorta. And, learning to be good at something is something that I am starting to work on. So… Osmose maybe? I am now 52% confident :joy:

#1820

Osmose is a keyboard-based experience but it is not your standard piano/keyboard experience:

  • The keys are, as far as I can assess it, slightly wider on the Osmose than on a standard keyboard. This makes it a bit more challenging to grab chords - EDIT: no, they are not!

  • Even though it has amazing light touch sensitivity, Osmose’s keys also have more resistance than a semi-weighted key controller. The resistance does not provide as much feedback as a fully weighted controller. There is a point between Z and Y that you can distinctly feel but for the rest you will orient yourself more by the ear than by information received by your fingers, at least for anything vertical or related to bending (your fingers will still distinguish the different keys, naturally);

  • Osmose requires more articulate playing to generate the same velocity to control non-MPE synths, compared to a standard controller.

Whichever the differences that you might experience, it is certainly not as dramatic as changing from a keyboard to a Continuum. The Osmose is far easier to learn if you have a keyboard background.

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#1822

Ive played on a number of different brands of grand piano, upright piano, etc. and key width really is not that standardized. One Baldwin baby grand I played on had keys that were way narrower than the osmose. You get used to it in 15-30 min. The osmose sounds totally within the realm of normal width. However, I bet synths are a lot more standardized.

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#1823

You know what, I’ve just checked with my Kronos and guess what, indeed, they are exactly the same width and length (white area) down to half a millimeter. So it is just a st**** optical illusion or psychological effect :joy:

Nevertheless what I’ve mentioned about chord play still holds, but it has more to do with my third point - I have compared the Prophet 10 rev 4 module controlled from my Kronos and from the Osmose. It feels easier or lighter to play fast chords at consistent velocity with the Kronos.

#1824

yeah, key width, measured over entire length of Osmose range (*), is almost identical to by Virus TI (pretty common fatar key bed), and my Roland digital piano.

(*) you have to ignore the last © key on the Osmose, as this is different/narrower than all the others…

btw: I was not suggesting this, or frankly any synth keybed, is the best for learning piano… as the feel is completely different (on both) to a weighted piano…
however, there are a hell of a lot of transfer skills, esp, at my (and OP) level.

also be aware… although continuum has markings for the chromatic scale, so may appear to the have the same layout… this is not true…
the continuum has equal spacing for all notes… ie. the black notes take up the same space as the white ones, whereas on a piano the spacing is staggered/interleaved.
this means if you play a triad, your hand position is very different…and octaves are much wider.

I mean none of this really matters… which is why as I stated, I dont really regret my decision…

whilst my keyboards skills did not improve as much as they might have with an Osmose, the Eigenharp taught me how to play isomorphic grids (in various configurations) which has been very valuable, which I used on a Soundplane and the Erae Touch, and various others.
and has been stated elsewhere, the piano layout is (slightly) compromised for doing 3d expression.
so… in this area, I think learning isomorphic grids is pretty useful … if not a conventional/traditional skill.

so its just a matter of choice, focus, and then practicing :slight_smile:

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#1825

Really I think the isomorphic grid layout makes the most sense for composing electronic music. You can set the pads to be in whatever scale you want, set the rows to be shifted by however many semitones you want, and it is even possible to set them up to do microtonal stuff easier as well. And some of them (linnstrument etc.) even do mpe. If I didn’t have any piano skills and synths didn’t default to having keybeds I would probably go this route. I find myself playing chords etc. on my hapax a lot even when I have my midi keyboard right there just because it is so easy and you can try different setups to see what comes out.

I have an osmose on preorder, but man, thinking more on it the linnstrument it is pretty tempting lol. If it also had the haken engine it would be a very close call.

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#1826

indeed isomorphic has its advantages… I find it also leads me to different places than the piano.

of course, if you get an osmose, you can also drive it from an isomorphic surface via mpe.

the first time I connected my Eigenharp to my Osmose, it took me about an hour to stop grinning… a tremendous experience, and a new way to experience the Haken Engine.
perhaps one reason its was so good, is the Osmose shares some physical similarities to the Eigenharp, so Osmose presets work so well with it ‘out of the box’

The Erae Touch was great too, as being continuous it opens up pitch slides, however, I felt the presets needed to be altered a bit (via Haken Editor) to work nicely.

but as Ive said before, every different surface, yields something new and different … which is why I am so excited by the Haken Engine, it really allows you to explore the physical characteristics of different surfaces and layouts.

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#1827

Absolutely agree – I have minimal (read zero) piano training and the fourths tuning and consistent geometry of the Linnstrument immediately clicked for me in a way that a keyboard never has. I haven’t given up on trying to become adept at the keyboard, but I wish keys and scales on a keyboard had the same easy geometry that they do on a Linnstrument.

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#1828

Just to double check, the osmose gives you full access to the haken engine correct? I could load up a preset that would normally work best with the continuum for example and them play it with a linnstrument?

Sounds like it is getting expensive lol.

#1829

Yes.
With a couple of caveats.

continuum surface has a faster connection and higher resolution access to engine.

( that does not make mpe / mpe+ bad ! )

Continuum presets have been fine tuned for the continuum surface, so on other surfaces will need to be tinkered with.
AND some surfaces won’t have the same technical or physical. capabilities as the continuum.

eg the linnstrument has a very shallow depth, so its Z axis is not as fast or precise as it is on a continuum., nor can it be played in the same way ( imo) … but that can sometimes be advantageous too.

thats was my point about each surface brings something different…

a linnstrument + Haken engine , does not make a continuum but something unique.

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#1830

Thanks!

You seem to have a lot of experience with this kind of thing, so I was wondering how you would compare the expressiveness of the osmose vs the linnstrument. I imagine the linnstrument has some advantages (like having a y direction separated out and not just pressure and then aftertouch on top of each other, maybe it is easier to do slides, etc), but also some disadvantages (not as much travel distance, maybe not as much tactile feedback, etc.)

I would love to hear your thoughts…

#1831

I don’t own a Linnstrument, though have played with one a few times, so my experience is limited.

in fact, after playing with one for the first time, I went on to buy a Madrona Labs Soundplane instead - so I kind of liken it to that, but its a bit different…
(also Ive never played the smaller version, only the full size one)

overall, I think the Linnstrument is very well implemented, many expressive controllers have quirks which you have to ‘workaround’ whereas the Linnstrument firmware/sensors feel really robust/reliable. (at least as much as Ive used… long term owners could say more on this)
for me, its greatest strength is therefore it does what it says on the tin.

for a continuous surface, yeah the Y axis is a bit small for my taste… I found my self more rocking on the Y axis, rather than physical sliding. and its limited to one row…
(whereas the soundplane is completely continuous in all 3 planes)

I also didn’t particularly like the feel of the surface, but thats completely personal… I can’t say its was a ‘problem’, just a preference.
(again, probably I was comparing to the Soundplane, which I really like the surface of)

but yeah, its a really solid/reliable MPE controller, and very well supported…
if I didn’t have similar, Id probably have bought one.

as for comparing directly to the Osmose, I don’t think you really can…

as I said, Isomorphic/Continuous surfaces, do suit expressive play slightly more, particularly compared to osmose.
but the Osmose strength is as a keyboard… also like the Eigenharp, having discrete ‘keys’ does have some advantages even in expressive play for certain styles/ and sound types.
( hard to come up with examples, but a piano like sound on an Osmose/Eigenharp is much more enjoyable to play than on something like a Linnstrument)

again… I know everyone wants the ‘ultimate’ mpe controller, that does it all…
but once you’ve played with a few, you’ll realise that is no more possible, than it is for a piano to replace a violin… the playing surface is important, and affects how/what you play.

… but of course, you dont need perfection, these can all play everything very well.

also of course, the Osmose is a complete instrument, and the Linnstrument is not… and the continuum is considerably more expensive that the others :wink:

tl;dr :laughing:
if I was going to buy ONE (my first) mpe controller/instrument …
it’d very likely buy the Osmose. just because its a complete instrument… and I like the Haken Engine. ( and I dont mind do sound design with the Editor)

however
IF I really wanted to do hands on sound design, or didn’t like the Haken Editor,
AND I didn’t have (nor want to develop) keyboard skills…
THEN I think the Linnstrument, perhaps with a hardware MPE synth would be the way Id go.
(probably similarly budget !)

p.s. also please bare in mind, I , like many others on this topic, pre-ordered the Osmose over 3 years ago… so we got it at a ridiculous discount… so my views are definitely clouded by this… there is nothing comparable at the price we paid !

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#1832

I own both the Linnstrument and the Osmose. The LS is a controller (no synth engine), light, low power and transportable, with an impeccable user interface - a perfect alternative companion for the road, in a beautiful packaging.The surface’s touch has evolved in recent years (with revised material) and feels nice IMO. Support is perfect, with no one else than Roger himself. Hardware and software are open source.

Compared to the Osmose, Y and Z travel are short but still surprisingly expressive. X is continuous, except for a minor physical limitation: the surface has “pad” areas for your orientation, so there are short moments of minor up&down within side ranges, which may annoy a minority users (see KVR forum). The Osmose competes well in this area with its polyphonic pressure portamento - this nonetheless requires a more planned approach, which is not necessarily a mistake.

The LS arpeggiator is sensitive to MPE, similar as the Osmose’s, though less featured than on the latter. There is also a non-MPE on-board step sequencer and plenty of configuration possibilities for the surface itself, all without computer.

Like the Osmose, LS works with any MIDI capable solution (eg multitimbral synths), not only with MPE.

The isomorphic surface layout is both its biggest disadvantage and advantage: there is a steeper learning curve for keyboardists, and a less steeper learning curve for guitarists and alike.

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#1833

I have learned how important this experience has been. To illustrate, I’d compare my experiences with the Korg Wavestate to the Waldorf Iridium. I think most people would agree that the Iridium has a much deeper capacity than the Wavestate in terms of sound design, yet the Wavestate does some really cool stuff that really no other (current) instrument does. I had them both out in my studio, side by side, for about a year. I almost never touched the Wavestate, while using the Iridium almost every time I was in my studio. I understood the Wavestate, I just didn’t like digging into it. I make this comparison because, when Korg came out with a VST based editor for the Wavestate, it made sound design much better and easier to access, but of course now I had to dive ITB to get to this more accessible sound design UI. Ugh. The wavestate sits in my closet–too cool to sell, too much of a bummer to use well. I can see feeling the same way about the EaganMatrix. The problem at the other end with the Osmose, as far as I can tell (I don’t own one yet, but do plan to get one), is that, without the Eaganmatrix, you are quite limited in what you can do in terms of sound design (six macros per preset, and no creation of presets without using EM). I’ve heard others say you can just look at the Osmose as an instrument with a large pallet of existing presets (500) and leave it at that. I’d be cool with that. I just wish there were more ways to tweak the presets without having to connect to a computer and dig into the EM.

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#1834

Mine arrived today.

Unfortunately, it kept complaining about “Sensor init fails” every time I turned it on or attempted to run the firmware updater.

The C3 key was playing an E note until I “restarted” (turned off, then back on) the Osmose twice. Then it was playing C, but the buggy behavior shifted to the E3 key, which started playing E an octave up.

The very first time I turned on the Osmose, I had the quick start guide sitting on top of the keyboard. I made sure nothing was on the keyboard when I restarted it.

I then restarted it again with the USB cable unplugged and attempted to run the firmware updater. It again failed with the complaint about the sensors and this time I got no sound at all from the Osmose.

Submitted a support ticket and boxed it up just in case they say “yeah it’s a hardware defect, send it back”

#1835

I have finally gotten rid of the noise source of my Osmose: it was the stock PSU that was noisy. After checking with support, i got advised to try with another PSU. So I’ve purchased a Yamaha PA-150B (center positive, 18W), which is not cheap (45eur) but it has solved the noise issue that I had described in my first reply to your post.

I’ve started songwriting with the Osmose. Recording audio can be incredibly spontaneous and completely irreproducible. However, one accidental light touch of a neighbouring key and you’ve got to start over again. On its own, the EM may sound peculiar on occasion but when layered or mixed with other sounds, it creates a unique and lively texture. I love the expressive side of it and the grit&dirt that it allows me to add by my own hand. :cool:

Speaking of which, throwing the Osmose’s sound through the Volante is really cool because a light touch of its keys produces the same percussive effect as a light touch on a guitar string when sent through a delay.

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#1836

Such a bummer. I always fail to understand how any company, even a small one can let a product out the door that fails at startup.

#1837

I don’t know the exact ratio of faulty to perfectly functional units - obviously - but there is no factory on this planet that does not produce a defective unit once a while.

I just happened to have that bad luck this time.

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#1838

Faulty gear happened to me a few times with synths, starting with my very first synth (Roland D-50) and with two other big names (Kurzweil K2600X, Korg Kronos).

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#1839

Sorry to hear about your Kronos, mine has been flawless for nine years. I did have a Waldorf Iridium that would not even start up upon arrival, but fortunately the place I got it, had a second one, which has been very reliable since upgrading the firmware.

As to the Osmose, there are a sufficiently widespread number of reports of significant hardware issues, that, as much as I really want one, I am going to wait to see if expressive E can sort through their issues.