Footswitch pedal for changing patterns?

[closencounters]

guess you haven’t heard of soma lab…

[peterklank]

Morningstar mc6 or mc8 is also very good and versatile.

[Paulsvibes]

I wanted to ask if anyone (this is sort of similar) knows how to do this: the manual is still unclear to me or maybe is what i want to do with an external midi controller not possible:
1.) (first the manual way to change a pattern on the Elektron Samples is to Press both the PATTERN + the TRIG number key, then it plays the new pattern of trigs)

2.) The manual says Elektron Samples can change a pattern by a Midi Program Change message to change the pattern. But HOW!? lol. It says all this stuff about keys hold 0-95 and all this and F0 to so on.

3.) All i want to know if if an external midi keyboard controller with a press of one key or can i setup some device with one key press , or like a macro to (dawless with hardware only) to make the Elektron Samples switch to a TRIG pattern number key that i want to manually progress a live set or song forward from TRIG 1 to TRIG 2 lets say, but setting up some channel on midi external instrument to do this, or is a program message require more than just this? I dont fee lively in presence on stage if its just automation pattern chaining.

Sincerely, i appreciate anyones wisdom and hail mary here.

[PeterHanes]

Welcome to the forum!

@Paulsvibes

The manual says Elektron Samples can change a pattern by a Midi Program Change message to change the pattern. But HOW!? lol. It says all this stuff about keys hold 0-95 and all this and F0 to so on.

You probably know that the Model:Samples (M:S) has 96 patterns, arranged in six banks of sixteen patterns each. The pattern banks are identified by the letters A to F, and in each pattern bank the patterns are numbered 01 to 16.

The M:S can change pattern in response to a MIDI Program Change (PC) message sent on the applicable MIDI channel from another device. The value of the PC message (in the range from 0 to 95) determines which pattern is selected.

• A value of 0 selects pattern A01,
• a value of 1 selects pattern A02,
  and so on until
• a value of 15 selects pattern A16,
• a value of 16 selects pattern B01,
  and so on until
• a value of 95 selects pattern F16.

@Paulsvibes

if an external midi keyboard controller with a press of one key or can i setup some device with one key press , or like a macro to (dawless with hardware only) to make the Elektron Samples switch to a TRIG pattern number key that i want to manually progress a live set or song forward from TRIG 1 to TRIG 2 lets say, but setting up some channel on midi external instrument to do this, or is a program message require more than just this?

Some basic MIDI controllers allow you to assign specific values of PC message to a control. You would obviously need a lot of controls to access all the patterns.

Some smarter MIDI controllers can remember which value was previously sent and can be set up to send a PC value that is one higher or one lower than the previous value.

Other devices could be programmed to send values in a customised list that you have determined.

Do you have any MIDI controllers already?

[Paulsvibes]

Ok so if I have pattern 14 playing and I want pattern 15 to play in middle of a live set,
Let’s say I want my external midi controller which has 16 channels can send the PC to the pattern assigned to channel 15 to change to pattern 15,
The issue is in elektron samples how in the menu diving do I access that because it only shows midi affecting the T1-T6 tracks.
But If I go into Pattern of the menu is this where I’m going to set it up for midi channels and will it show me pattern 1 through 16 that I can setup for a midi in Channel number?

I do have a midi controller (m-audio venom with midi in and outs and upto 16 channels I can use).

[PeterHanes]

@Paulsvibes

if I have pattern 14 playing and I want pattern 15 to play in middle of a live set,
Let’s say I want my external midi controller which has 16 channels can send the PC to the pattern assigned to channel 15 to change to pattern 15,
The issue is in elektron samples how in the menu diving do I access that because it only shows midi affecting the T1-T6 tracks.
But If I go into Pattern of the menu is this where I’m going to set it up for midi channels and will it show me pattern 1 through 16 that I can setup for a midi in Channel number?

A pattern on the M:S contains information for all 6 tracks, so if you want to change pattern then you only need to send one value of Program Change message.

The value of the PC message is determined as I described above and it depends on which of the six pattern banks your target pattern is in. So if, for example, you want to change to bank C, pattern 15, then the value to send is 46.

The MIDI channel number on which the message needs to be sent is determined by the PCH IN setting in the CONFIG > MIDI > IN CHAN menu of the M:S, described on page 40 of the manual.

@Paulsvibes

I do have a midi controller (m-audio venom with midi in and outs and upto 16 channels I can use).

The Venom is not particularly designed for this purpose but if you set its MIDI channel to match the channel number that I described above on the M:S then when you select a program in the range from 0 to 95 on the Venom then it should send a suitable Program Change message to the M:S.

[Paulsvibes]

@PeterHanes

so if you want to change pattern then you only need to send one value of Program Change message

Ok so a moment here… so just to make sure we are talking about the SAME thing. I know that each Track T1-T6 has its own pattern (1-16). But im talking about how I have copied all tracks and their patterns from PATTERN + TRIG 1 to TRIG 2 (trig pattern 1 has the intro of all 6 tracks arranged, and then Trig Pattern 2 has the same but a slight variation different to build up the music). I’m not just wanting a midi controller key external to press to make it change any single T1-T6 track pattern or Banks A - F, im wanting it to change to Trig Pattern 2 because ALL of the tracks will be already to certain BANKS BEING ON AND OFF.
Rather than external midi controller key pressed to make an individual BANK turn on or off.
Now that i think of this as you explained this, if im playing progressive dance music…
is this essentially the same exact result wehther i choose method 1 or 2?

method 1: use an external midi key press to make M:S all banks and patterns start OVER by making it switch to Pattern/Scene 2 from scene 1 and plays all the banks tracks as arranged to liking.
OR
method 2: use an external midi key press to make M:S one individual BANK Track sample do whatever i want such as turn on or MUTE, or retrig it with a 1/8th to 1/16th notes build up.
For live performance im wanting to do things a little more manual (without pattern chaining).
Ideally, if im understanding this better or at all now will one method be easier? rather then having to press two buttons like PATTERN + 2 to make them start after pattern 1 of all bank samples arrangement ends.

[Paulsvibes]

@PeterHanes

The Venom is not particularly designed for this purpose but if you set its MIDI channel to match the channel number that I described above on the M:S then when you select a program in the range from 0 to 95 on the Venom then it should send a suitable Program Change message to the M:S.

right so i can see how this works out.

[Paulsvibes]

@PeterHanes

Some smarter MIDI controllers can remember which value was previously sent and can be set up to send a PC value that is one higher or one lower than the previous value.

That is exactly what i want to do to the M:S with an external midi controller by one key press, make it go to pattern 1, or to 2, or to 3, or 4 etc or even back down to 1 If i could or wanted to do.

[PeterHanes]

@Paulsvibes

so just to make sure we are talking about the SAME thing. I know that each Track T1-T6 has its own pattern (1-16).

We are talking about the same thing, but you’re a little confused with the terminology.

• There are 6 banks (A to F) each with 16 patterns (01 to 16).
• Each pattern contains 6 tracks (1 to 6).
• The M:S doesn’t have scenes.
• If you press [PATTERN] + [T2] then you’re selecting bank B.
• if you press [PATTERN] + [TRIG 6] then you’re selecting pattern 6 in the current bank. If the current bank is B then you’re selecting pattern B06.

@Paulsvibes

im talking about how I have copied all tracks and their patterns from PATTERN + TRIG 1 to TRIG 2 (trig pattern 1 has the intro of all 6 tracks arranged, and then Trig Pattern 2 has the same but a slight variation different to build up the music). I’m not just wanting a midi controller key external to press to make it change any single T1-T6 track pattern or Banks A - F, im wanting it to change to Trig Pattern 2

Yup; you’re wanting to change from pattern 1 in a bank to pattern 2 in a bank. You can change patterns using MIDI Program Change (PC) messages.

The message required depends on which pattern in which bank you’re switching to:

• if you want to switch to pattern A02 then you need to send a PC message with a value of 1,
• if you want to switch to pattern B02 then you need to send a PC message with a value of 17,
  and so on until
• if you want to switch to pattern F02 then you need to send a PC message with a value of 81.

@Paulsvibes

method 1: use an external midi key press to make M:S all banks and patterns start OVER by making it switch to Pattern/Scene 2 from scene 1 and plays all the banks tracks as arranged to liking.

Read the above about banks, patterns, and scenes. You can change pattern using a Program Change message sent from another device.

@Paulsvibes

method 2: use an external midi key press to make M:S one individual BANK Track sample do whatever i want such as turn on or MUTE, or retrig it with a 1/8th to 1/16th notes build up.

You can do some but not all of these things by sending MIDI Control Change (CC) messages from another device. The list of things you can do is in Appendix A (page 53) of the manual.

The other things you can only change manually on the M:S itself.

@Paulsvibes

That is exactly what i want to do to the M:S with an external midi controller by one key press, make it go to pattern 1, or to 2, or to 3, or 4 etc or even back down to 1

Your Venom can only do this by selecting a new program on it.

So you need a smarter MIDI controller; since all the Elektron gear works the same way then you will find a bunch of discussion all over the forum with experiences of what people use, such as:

Foot controller for +/- program change

I am wanting to play guitar and change patterns on my rig with a midi foot controller. My question, (hoping to avoid spending hours reading foot controller manuals, lol) does anyone know a foot controller that works well for sending program change messages? More specifically, I want to be able to go up/down one program from the one I am on. So…step on controller, goto next pattern on my Digitakt. Thanks!

AR / softstep2 - MIDI pattern changes, CC# etc

The only way to externally control the AR’s tempo is by synchronizing it to an external source of MIDI clock messages. The SoftStep 2 cannot do this. The AR can change its pattern in response to MIDI Program Change messages. I think that you can program the SoftStep 2 in its Advanced Editor software to increment and decrement the Program Change number. As stated previously, the scene can be selected by sending the appropriate value of CC message 92 and the 12 performances can be controlled us…

Incrementing/decrementing pattern number using sysex

OK,now I understand a little more what you want to do. As far as I can see, you don’t need MIDI SysEx messages at all. All the Elektron instruments allow you to select the next pattern by sending a MIDI Program Change message with a value that matches the pattern that you want to switch to (value 0 = pattern A01, value 1 = pattern A02 etc). I looked at the User’s Guide for the Soleman and saw that its Scene Mode steps through its own programs in sequential order and that you can use the Solema…

Programming midi to change patterns

There’s no specific midi message for pattern increment / decrement. You’d need a midi processor with variables. I think it’s doable with Retrokits RK002. It would need to receive the current Prog Change, and then it would be able to send this value +1 or -1. But with something like MIDI MOUSE, you can do it setting manually the first pattern.

[Paulsvibes]

@peterhanes My midi keyboard is only playing the chromatic notes of the M:S TRACK/BANK(sample) i select, i dont want that. I mean its doing this because either T1-T6 is set as a Midi Channel number. I want to start a PLAYBACK of entire arranged sequence of PATTERN TRIG 1 and maybe have it start playback of pattern + trig 2 back and forth when i want it too.

[Paulsvibes]

@Programming midi to change patterns

There’s no specific midi message for pattern increment / decrement. You’d need a midi processor with variables. I think it’s doable with Retrokits RK002. It would need to receive the current Prog Change, and then it would be able to send this value +1 or -1. But with something like MIDI MOUSE, you can do it setting manually the first pattern.

i do have a MIDI MOUSE foot pedal. so when some users speak of starting from Model:Samples a Value 0 = Pattern A01 , i am talking about the PATTERN + TRIG button 1 (some may use it as a project or a scene) which plays back all my banks as arranged with samples. I want to switch it to Pattern + TRIG button 2 so that it plays back all the banks with samples arranged as they are because it will progress with the music. Is this the same Pattern in terms you are speaking of, because i dont want to confuse my goal with trying to just get a single bank pattern to switch. My goal is the entire banks in a PATTERN 1, to switch to {PATTERN 2 (by the usual two button presses of PATTERN + TRIG 1 and then PATTERN + Trig 2 by the use of a single foot switch tap or a keyboard key press to switch it from playing back pattern 1 to switch to pattern 2 (which contains all banks arranged already). For example i copied all banks and patters from Trig 1 to Trig 2. Then i setup trig 2 with new variation of a bank on mute or maybe it turns on.

I know MIDI MOUSE worked with ableton live but im using an Elektron Model:Samples, and an external midi controller keyboard.

[PeterHanes]

@Paulsvibes

My midi keyboard is only playing the chromatic notes of the M:S TRACK/BANK(sample) i select, i dont want that. I mean its doing this because either T1-T6 is set as a Midi Channel number. I want to start a PLAYBACK of entire arranged sequence of PATTERN TRIG 1 and maybe have it start playback of pattern + trig 2 back and forth when i want it too.

The Venom does not have the ability to send a Start or Stop message to the M:S.

However, once the M:S has started playing, the Venom can send MIDI Program Change messages to the M:S to change to a new pattern, as I described previously:

@PeterHanes

The Venom is not particularly designed for this purpose but if you set its MIDI channel to match the channel number that I described above on the M:S then when you select a program in the range from 0 to 95 on the Venom then it should send a suitable Program Change message to the M:S.

@Paulsvibes

i do have a MIDI MOUSE foot pedal. so when some users speak of starting from Model:Samples a Value 0 = Pattern A01 , i am talking about the PATTERN + TRIG button 1 (some may use it as a project or a scene) which plays back all my banks as arranged with samples. I want to switch it to Pattern + TRIG button 2

My goal is the entire banks in a PATTERN 1, to switch to {PATTERN 2 (by the usual two button presses of PATTERN + TRIG 1 and then PATTERN + Trig 2 by the use of a single foot switch tap or a keyboard key press to switch it from playing back pattern 1 to switch to pattern 2 (which contains all banks arranged already).

You can do this with the MIDI Mouse if you follow the instructions in its manual and make the correct settings on the M:S.

@Paulsvibes

Is this the same Pattern in terms you are speaking of, because i dont want to confuse my goal with trying to just get a single bank pattern to switch.

@PeterHanes

We are talking about the same thing, but you’re a little confused with the terminology.

• There are 6 banks (A to F) each with 16 patterns (01 to 16).
• Each pattern contains 6 tracks (1 to 6).
• The M:S doesn’t have scenes.
• If you press [PATTERN] + [T2] then you’re selecting bank B.
• if you press [PATTERN] + [TRIG 6] then you’re selecting pattern 6 in the current bank. If the current bank is B then you’re selecting pattern B06.

[Paulsvibes]

@PeterHanes

We are talking about the same thing, but you’re a little confused with the terminology.

• There are 6 banks (A to F) each with 16 patterns (01 to 16).
• Each pattern contains 6 tracks (1 to 6).
• The M:S doesn’t have scenes.
• If you press [PATTERN] + [T2] then you’re selecting bank B.
• if you press [PATTERN] + [TRIG 6] then you’re selecting pattern 6 in the current bank. If the current bank is B then you’re selecting pattern B06.

Right so what I want to know first is since the m:s to change from (whatever banks are in or muted to me won’t I assume be the concern here because I’ll have those already arranged with each sound sample in each track(bank) arrange in its pattern for each sample track in A-F, but if I use the the midi mouse or even the venom to send a PC (0-95 or in venom 0-95 might be of course a message sent and on it might be some random sound library item value sent to the M:S but I won’t be selecting sound or track samples or programs in the M:S,**I instead want to be sending a Macro in essence that presses the M:S buttons PATTERN + TRIG 2 step button once by press of one CC IF possible.
I attached a small video clip to show clearly what I want to do. IMG_0606.MOV on Vimeo

Or if it just easier if I can press a venom key to make the permanent bank PITCH knob (to get to a next music note live performance) of the note sequencing to change pitch and stay on the pitch note musically and it’ll continue to sequence the note already in its arrangement with one key press from my midi venom or maybe the m:s without turning or twisting the pitch knob?

[bibenu]

Let me start by apologising if I’ve misunderstood you. But … from what I read in your last post, and hear in your video, you don’t appear to understand that banks and tracks are different things.

I suspect this comes from banks and tracks being selected by the same six buttons (T1-T6) which are used to select Tracks 1-6 (when used with the TRACK button) and Banks A-F (when used in combination with the PATTERN button)

I’d like to offer comment on the last part of your first paragraph, but I don’t think you’ll get it if you don’t understand that tracks and banks are different.

@Paulsvibes

whatever banks are in or muted to me won’t I assume be the concern here

Banks can’t be muted, tracks can.

@Paulsvibes

already arranged with each sound sample in each track(bank)

Sound samples are selected to into a track, not a bank

@Paulsvibes

for each sample track in A-F

Tracks are T1 -T6, not A-F

The 6 Banks A-F are each a collection of 16 patterns, and within each of those patterns there are 6 tracks T1-T6.

Maybe you already get this (and I’m just being picky about language) if so, I apologise, but I wanted to be sure you understand banks and tracks before I comment on the question at the end of your first paragraph.

[PeterHanes]

@Paulsvibes

what I want to know first is since the m:s to change from (whatever banks are in or muted to me won’t I assume be the concern here because I’ll have those already arranged with each sound sample in each track(bank) arrange in its pattern for each sample track in A-F, but if I use the the midi mouse or even the venom to send a PC (0-95 or in venom 0-95 might be of course a message sent and on it might be some random sound library item value sent to the M:S but I won’t be selecting sound or track samples or programs in the M:S,**I instead want to be sending a Macro in essence that presses the M:S buttons PATTERN + TRIG 2 step button once by press of one CC IF possible.
I attached a small video clip to show clearly what I want to do.

What you are describing in your video is a change of pattern (from pattern A14 to pattern A15, because you are in bank A, as shown on the screen of the M:S). You can do this by sending a MIDI Program Change message from another device to the M:S.

You can send a PC message from the Venom by changing its program. You cannot do so by pressing a key on the Venom (unless you have an additional MIDI processing device between the Venom and the M:S).

You could also send a MIDI PC message from the MIDI Mouse, by connecting it to the MIDI In port of the M:S and pressing the Up or Down button.

Just try it. It’s the only way to find out how the system works. It won’t mess up any sounds in the M:S; it will only change the pattern.

@Paulsvibes

Or if it just easier if I can press a venom key to make the permanent bank PITCH knob (to get to a next music note live performance) of the note sequencing to change pitch and stay on the pitch note musically and it’ll continue to sequence the note already in its arrangement with one key press from my midi venom or maybe the m:s without turning or twisting the pitch knob?

Do you mean that you want to transpose one or all of the sounds on the M:S using an external device?

[Paulsvibes]

Yes transpose essentially a baseline note so it resumes playing the sequence but with a transposed bass note up or down musically.

Also if it’s in a bank, it’s still playing all the Banks that are On or unmuted and each bank (which is what I want) and each bank has its program sample assigned resuming their sequences, and all are in project 1(pattern + trig 1), and they I would want just switched to project 2(pattern + trig 2). Because the bass line note changes in pattern trig 2.

[Paulsvibes]

@PeterHanes

What you are describing in your video is a change of pattern (from pattern A14 to pattern A15, because you are in bank A, as shown on the screen of the M:S). You can do this by sending a MIDI Program Change message from another device to the M:S.

You can send a PC message from the Venom by changing its program. You cannot do so by pressing a key on the Venom (unless you have an additional MIDI processing device between the Venom and the M:S).

You could also send a MIDI PC message from the MIDI Mouse, by connecting it to the MIDI In port of the M:S and pressing the Up or Down button.

Just try it. It’s the only way to find out how the system works. It won’t mess up any sounds in the M:S; it will only change the pattern.

I’ll try to see if my Venom by choice of Global Midi mode or just a midi channel can send a Program Change (PC) to the M:S.

[Paulsvibes]

@bibenu

Banks can’t be muted, tracks can.

Right, the purpose of the terms understood and functionality of each (bank versus tracks) is understood though.

@bibenu

Sound samples are selected to into a track, not a bank

My explanation sorry was not exactly clear but that is what i meant. Each track has its sound sample already designated. I meant that all tracks are playing with their already setup sequenced arrangements in steps.

Implementation or Guide for my Venom:
Venom User Guide https://www.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/Manual/MAudioVenomUserGuide.pdf

Legend for the guide is:

@bibenu

Tracks are T1 -T6, not A-F

Well the reason i described using BOTH of those terms of the buttons is to make sure i cover my Arse fomr explanation reasons to reach my goal because literally on its face the button label below for example T1-T6 shows its own BANK Letter/MUTE label below each Track button just so you know which item on the M:S i am using. So all tracks T1-6 are occupied with its assigned sound with each its own pattern, or would you like me to be more semantics and call it a Program on each Track? either way its a sound put on to each track. No worries about picky language and thats good technically to be precise to avoid mistakes. thumbs up.

issue here is it might be that i dont have a device that can send the proper type of CC or PC to the M:S even though i have the M:S that can receive the changes.

[bibenu]

@Paulsvibes

issue here is it might be that i dont have a device that can send the proper type of CC or PC to the M:S

Well, I know nothing about the venom, but from the manual snippet you posted

looks like it should do the job.

Sounds like @PeterHanes knows both devices, I’ll leave further comment to him.