For "live-producing": 2nd OT? Or RYTM? Or Push 2?

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

Hi Elektronauts,

bear with me here, this is gonna be a long post.
Id like to have some opinion on my plans for a future setup.

Currently I have an Octatrack, a few synths and Ableton. My kind of music mostly consists of
drums + dirty rhythmic vinyl sample + one or two synths
and sounds like that:

https://soundcloud.com/herr_rausch/herr-rausch-pumpwerk

This is what I want to achieve in the future:
- harsh dirty techno (rather harder then in the example above)

- be able to tweak as much as possible directly and OTB (means e.g. be able to do a reverb build-up and a filter sweep at the same time)
- marry the process of producing and performing as much as possible
- be able to perform live with this setup at some point

Karenn have inspired me a lot, they do everything live:

In the Picture you can see what I planned. The red lines are audio cables. Drawing every single one of them from output, through FX, to final Input, would have made the image a bit confusing - so I just implied some audio cables with red dots.Basically some Sounds would run into one of the Focusrites directly, some could go trough the hardware FX first.

Two OTs would play together in this setup. The first one would take care of basic drums, the second of additional stuff.

2_OT.png1042Ă—792 591 KB

OT 1
T1 – Kick
T2 – Kick layer

T3 – Clap/Snare
T4 - Clap/Snare layer

And so on…

OT2
T1 – Ride

T2 – Anything, flexible Track
T3 – Neighbour Track
T4 – Neighbour Track

T5 – PU machine, records Vinyl

T6 – Playback and mangling of the sampled stuff
T7 – Neighbour Track
T8 – Neighbour Track

Except for the sampled stuff everything would be put out in Mono, by using the cue outs in studio mode and hardpanning all the tracks.
I would jam and multitrack record everything on discrete tracks in Ableton.
An additional MIDI-Controller could give me direct access to master FX inside the DAW (e.g. Low Cut Filter)

I have tried out the settings of OT1 with the OT I have and it actually worked pretty well. But this setup would mean quite a big investment and there are surely alternatives. Instead of a second OT I could get…

… a RYTM

  • overbridge integration – better possibilities to finetune after recording
  • analog AND samples
  • nice built-in FX as I heard
  • most Techno demos Ive heard are not too convincing, although everybody says its great for that. Please feel free to prove me wrong!
  • I might prefer samples only, not sure. I had an MBase 11, XBase 09 and a TR8 and didn’t really gel with any of them

Btw: Is it possible to have every single drum of the RYTM on a discrete track in Ableton?

… Push 2

  • great Ableton Integration
  • additional sampling possibilities, like polyphonic sample playback (I really like that)
  • didn’t get anything done on Push 1, found it very uninspiring
  • no sample chains (yeah I know theres this workaround with an instrument rack, but that just eats up to much CPU)
  • no OTB signal chain for proper on-the-fly-FX-tweaking (its only half the fun with a MIDI-Controller)

Aaand lets do the same pros and cons list for
… a second OT

  • lots and lots of possibilities, very flexible
  • from what Ive read in another thread, two OTs are perfect for live performance (of course with a different internal setup, but that’s no problem)
  • I finally understand how it works and Id like to push it further
  • maybe there will be an OT MKII some time and when it has 8 outputs Im gonna bite my ass

If anyone has experience with a similar setup, or Push 2 or the RYTM in conjunction with an OT, please tell me what you think. And please keep in mind what I want to achieve with this setup - “live-producing” of (Hard) Techno.

Any opinion is welcome! :+1: :+1: :+1:

Cheers, Herr Rausch

2 Likes
#2

I have a Push 1, RYTM, OT and A4. (Sold my Waldorf Synth, and regretted it.) I use the push mostly for scales, and note sequencing, the sample chopping , i do normally in Audacity /Wavosaur, if needed. Or i pull in a sample in Live, set warp points, and then slice to drum rack, to have individual words /sentences /slices. I use Live mostly to create sample chains now for the OT.
Push works very good for the built in devices in Live, but if you like to use it with external VST, its a bit too much menu diving - i normally create a synth patch, and then map the most interesting controls of the VST to a macro group (you have to prepare your sounds for Push).
I just wasn’t overwhelmed about the slicing with push - if you’re a hip hop producer, it may appeal to you, Push is very cool, if you don’t have one, its well worth it.

I would recommend the RYTM, some of the analog engines are not so interesting when played alone, but they are very good for layering it with samples, it gives a little extra punch to the samples. The analog filters though give a nice feel to the samples.

What is good about the RYTM: the interactivity (scenes, performance mode, pads)

You could build simple sample chains, to plock different sounds, or to scene lock different sounds, when you shift the sample position.

I think what adds a lot, is the interactivity with the drums, OT has more uses sample wise, but besides selecting scenes, moving them, the RYTM allows a more tactile interface.

I add normally drum loops in the OT on one track (sliced, and re sequence that loop with an LFO to the slice position, with the scene i control the amount of the LFO), and use a through machine, and neighbor machine for the RYTM, with that i can add 4 FX to the RYTM, sequenced.
With that, i can add FX on a certain step. Allowing rhytimic fx chains.

I think the combination of both is very good for techno.

#3

Two OT’s for duties of one drum machine? Get a MD or MPC instead! Old boss mixer or distortion pedals for dirt, OT or Rytm or just good FX for the icing on the top.

You could also just get a Rytm and learn it inside out, because it has dirt and good FX.

The only thing you (may) really need an OT for is the live sampling aspect of vinyl. However, I’ve also seen some great videos of people looping vinyl “manually” without any sampler.

As you already have an OT, I’d suggest getting a drum machine to accompany the OT.

#4

When it comes to the drums, whats important to me is:

  1. layering
    OT and RYTM can do that. I see the MPC1000 for example has 4 assignable outs. If I could assign more than one pad to one out, it could do the job. 4 Drums via the MPC and maybe additional via the OT. Im gonna have a look at that!

  2. having individual outs, so I can put every single sound through FX-hardware
    (e.g. Reverb on Snare, Distortion on Bassdrum)
    RYTM has individual outs, but I read you cant have the FX on the individual outs - only dry drums on individual outs and then FX seperately on the main outs. kinda kills it for me :thinking:

MD just doesnt appeal to me soundwise. But Im definitely gonna dig deeper with the MPC. It does also do polyphonic sample playback doesnt it?

@Sternenlicht: I try to stay away from the computer as much as possible, I just wanna use Ableton for finetuning/mixing and rearranging what I recorded. OT + RYTM seems like a very interesting combo, but as I said above, the lack of FX on the individual outs really is a problem for me.

#5

When it comes to the drums, whats important to me is:

  1. layering
    OT and RYTM can do that. I see the MPC1000 for example has 4 assignable outs. If I could assign more than one pad to one out, it could do the job. 4 Drums via the MPC and maybe additional via the OT. Im gonna have a look at that!

  2. having individual outs, so I can put every single sound through FX-hardware
    (e.g. Reverb on Snare, Distortion on Bassdrum)
    RYTM has individual outs, but I read you cant have the FX on the individual outs - only dry drums on individual outs and then FX seperately on the main outs. kinda kills it for me :thinking:

MD just doesnt appeal to me soundwise. But Im definitely gonna dig deeper with the MPC. It does also do polyphonic sample playback doesnt it?[/quote]
MPC 2500: 8 separate outs, 32 voices, much more kits available in parallel than you’ll probably ever need for some drums. I usually use 4 kits in parallel to jam around with drum samples and mix them together on a DJ mixer as if they were 2-4 DJ decks.

The Rytm would also be a great companion for the OT (with external FX on the individual outs, as you suggested), had a lot of fun with that combo before I replaced it with a MPC plus external FX.

#6

How do you layer drums on OT? By using multiple tracks?

#7

In the Internet tradition of answering a multiple choice question with a none of the above answer, I offer this example of banging techno on the Analog Four.

https://soundcloud.com/allthatsgone/bangerishing

The A4 is my favorite drum machine and I pair it with the OT. The different sound palette from the OT but similar feel makes for a solid combination. The differences between this and the RYTM are among other things, that the RYTM has 8 voices instead of 4 and offers sample support, which you do not need. The RYTM offers compression and distortion, which you’ll get from the OT. On the other hand, the 4 voices are full voices rather than specialized ones so you get more stuff per sound.

EDIT - no individual outs on the A$, the AK has them.

#8

Push 2 is a very different beast from Push 1.
Aside from the obvious difference in the display (which is indeed more inspiring), they rethinked the entire button layout and it is incredibly logical.
Buttons you need aren’t just where they should be now, in use they’re where you expect them to be.

I got the opportunity to spend an hour with one recently and it was as if the muscle memory was already there. I didn’t even own Push 1, either.
It is surprisingly well thought out. A testament to good design.

#9

[…][/quote]
MPC 2500: 8 separate outs, 32 voices, much more kits available in parallel than you’ll probably ever need for some drums. I usually use 4 kits in parallel to jam around with drum samples and mix them together on a DJ mixer as if they were 2-4 DJ decks.

The Rytm would also be a great companion for the OT (with external FX on the individual outs, as you suggested), had a lot of fun with that combo before I replaced it with a MPC plus external FX.[/quote]
Wow dude that MPC 2500 could be the ultimate solution :astonished: thanks a lot for the tip, I might go with that!

@DL: As said in the initial post, for example
T1 = Kick
T2 = some top layer check out Goldbaby´s Dirt and Layer Pack for that its great: http://www.goldbaby.co.nz/dirtandlayers.html

T3 = Clap
T4 = top layer

and so on, pretty straight forward
but its not an ideal solution, takes to many tracks. Except you have more than one OT of course :wink:

@cleverconqueso:
yeah Ive heard quite a few examples of the A4 as a drum machine, didnt really dig any of them + thatd be only 4 drums, without samples. And yes I need sample support, I actually prefer samples for drums I think.

@AdamJay:
Push 2 definitely is tempting, but I fear that it will keep me ITB too much. And as much as I like Valhalla, Max4Live and all that, at some point it just takes my creativity away

MPC 2500 with 8 individual outs and polyphony seems to fill the gap best so far.
Anyways feel free to keep it coming. And thanks for your opinions so far!