Just a note about my original post: I never said that 909/808/MPC had something “magical”, “exotic”, “esoteric”, “special mojo”, “legendary” about their swing behaviour. I just wanted a more technical answer (like the info about the swing implementation from Roger Linn) and how that could be translated to the AR.
I don’t have Ableton for dissecting shuffle groove files or something. It could really help if someone can write some technical findings about swing patterns.
There’s no swing on the 808. The swing on the 909 and the MPC and all Elektron boxes works essentially the same.
There’s no magic. You just need to experiment with changing the settings and use your ears to find what amount sounds best for whatever pattern you programmed at which tempo.
That really is all there is to it.
This answer might not be what’s expected but hand playing swing can lead to the perfect swing for any beat as the mind can adjust the groove to account for everything happening in the mix. It’s simply done by feel. Alternatively increasing the percentage of quantization on a handplayed beat can lead to tighter timing that still has a nice varying swing vibe. The tiny shifts in timing, especially if each four bars are handplayed again and again, without copying and pasting, can still as of today achieve types of swing that machines cannot yet do.
here you have IMO the best explication in terms of how you can implement swing on any machine, from the man who create this in terms of drum machines…. Thanks for creating the thread……
There is swing on the AR. Select it and turn it up to around 66%. You can also apply swing to - or adjust the microtiming of - individual steps. There is nothing special in the 909/MPC swing (or most other areas) that the AR can’t do.
I’ve found the same, swing at 65% on the Octatrack sounds groovy to me.
The 808 doesn’t have swing but it has some behaviour that causes subtle variation in the sound. For example triggering the kick drum repeatedly doesn’t make the exact same sound every time because of the way the envelope retriggers.
The most notable one is that sounds that are programmed on the same step do not actually trigger at exactly the same moment. They trigger one after another - very rapidly after each other, but not simultaneously. This can cause certain sounds to drift on and off the beat very slightly.
The TR-8 emulates both of these things and more (if you record the midi output into a DAW you can see the timing shift - though there’s a hidden setting in the TR-8 to turn that behaviour off), and I’m sure the TR-08 does the same.
I dunno guys… i tend to agree on the science that backs what Mr Linn says regarding no magic sauce.
I have however heard numerous times, that the secret lies in the older CPUs, how they overload, and how they execute older code… which ultimately translates to increased “jitter” and/or introduces some instability with the sequencer…
If you’ve played on an MPC 60/3000 you can certainly tell the difference vs other MPCs… Heck, my Tempest (hello Roger Linn) feels different, groovier than any of my other gear including my old Rytm. This to me suggests it comes down to the user interface and the way they’ve been designed - think this plays a major role. Roger Linn instruments embrace and interact with the user in a very special way.
Anyway, it could all be BS and purely psychological I suppose… After all, Linn is synonymous with Inventor of Groove…
I think that makes a huge difference. I started to do this on my Octa, spread the sounds a bit that are on the same beat using micro timing.
And makes sense that it would change the “groove” on an 808.
(my new band name “slop and jitter”)
I, for one, absolutely believe in the magical groove of certain drum machines & sequencers. I do what I like to call the “machine-gun” test every time I encounter a new sequencer; basically, just laying down a bunch of 16th notes to see how robotic it sounds.
I definitely notice differences amongst various machines (for whatever reasons one might think/know), and have my own personal preferences. I usually refrain from these types of conversation over the years though because I’ve noticed they always become rather contentious.
I agree with nagualizer to just use the swing on the rytm. My addition credited to Mr Linn is to use the swing in increments of 50, 54, 58, 62, 66, and 70 as there are not much noticeable difference to the ear within the 4 settings like 50, 52,or 53. It is also to use the swing in context with your tempo as it is easier to swing heavily at slower tempos and swing lighter at faster tempos.
A great tip I got from Attack music was to start with only 16th note hi hats on all the steps and adjust the swing and listen to the groove at different tempos to find the groove and feel you want. Once you got the groove settings now clear the hats laid down your drums and new hats.
The definition of swing according to the inventor of swing is to extending the delay of every other 2nd note in 16 steps which for the first drum machines were steps 2,4,6,8,10,12,14 and 16.
Lastly microtiming is just like shift timing on the mpcs because you can move notes ahead of the beat or behind the beat I view it as your humanization factor.
I almost forget velocity it just as important to great swing made sure that you adjust the velocity of the individual hits of the kicks, snares, and hats to really bring out the groove or the swing won’t feel right. Velocity should be the first thing you do in your drum patterns.
The magic of the swing was like Mr Linn stated the operator of the instrument it can do what you tell it. You have to put your feel into it like Jimmy Jam’s, Prince’s and Mtume’s of the past.
Cool! I’m curious about which ones came out on top in your subjective testing. Or at least what differences you discovered.
You’re not alone, and one has to, I think, appreciate all that goes into the complete package. Maybe there is some lag due to envelopes, maybe there is an order of magnitude more clock drift or perhaps there are bus choke points due to taxed processors, maybe some modern developers add randomization to simulate vintage limitations, etc. All I know is some sequencers have a little more character than others and stand out as a result. My ears hear the difference, it’s not the paint scheme of the box.
If we wanted to geek out on this we could record one of the legendary magical swing devices and a rytm laying down the same pattern, same tempo, same swing amount, using a sound with a super fast attack…
Then line up the first sounds in a DAW and compare…
Absolutely, and run it as a blind test, no less. Think something like 4 samples on each device and run 60 seconds of audio out as a stem to compare.
I remember the 808 being a touch sloppy (in the best way), the 909 being tighter timing wise and the 707 being even more rigid. This was without swing being part of the equation.
Old school sequencers that groove in ways that pleased me most are:
MPC 60
Roland TR-606
Sequential Studio 440
SP-1200
I also really like how the Squarp Pyramid and Gotharman sequencers groove with an extremely subtle touch of randomization applied to the timing.
I was thinking examining visually in the DAW how the individual hits of the two devices line up, using swing, and seeing if they correlate exactly or if they deviate in a noticeable way…
That’s already been done. That’s why groove templates for MPCs, SP-1200, TR’s, etc even exist in Ableton, Reason, etc.
To Prints point, run the test sans swing or groove template and then compare.
Spoiler alert: you will still see a difference.
The most essential part of any drum machine are swing, timing, and velocity. All combined will made a great groove according to Roger Linn. Since his innovations with the Linndrum, Linn9000 and mpc every drum machine manufacturer has incorporated these functions to their gear be it elektron, Roland, Korg, Yamaha, and DAWs. Every filter is different, every circuit is different and more likely the swing may be different. However the key is very personal touch of each musician is different so enjoy the tool on hand and get the most out of it or several other units if you can afford it.
I like Roger Linn piece about how their isn’t any special swing just a well engineered unit for ease of use and putting your feel into it as you wish.