AK OSCs Fatter than A4?

Elektron Gear Analog Keys/Four
#81

I guess we have a problem with the vocabulary. So let’s stop using the word “fat”. Lets break it down to the main issue: If an oscillators job is to play a specific waveform at different frequencies, then the A4’s oscillators are very weak - especially at the lower frequencies.

Yes, you WILL desperately try to get around this by abusing the hpf as a bass boost eq, but the results are still far away from the sound made by a good, or at least acceptable oscillator.

This is neither pro nor contra elektron. This is no marketing. This is just what you’ll excperience if you use your ears. If you like it, you are free to call this the instruments charakter. For me it’s just the engineers lack of knowhow on building analog instruments. Nothing more, nothing less.

The A4 was a great success and i’m shure that elektron will continue doing analog synths and they will improve their oscillators for shure!

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#82

A synths characteristic sound is more than just the sound of the single components. Are the oscillator weak? Yes, sorta… But does it sound good together with filter, env, modulation etc.?
Yes!

Can it do bass sounds, that fit in the mix? Yes!

More “fat”, as i mentioned already in other threads, could also mean too much fat. My Moog Voyager always gave me headaches with its fatness, until i realized i just should use a single Osc, and 12dB LPF to get enough fatness for my bass sounds.

So hear the words…it aint a Moog…but a very characterfull own A4 sound what you get, that sits well in the mix.

#83

Not all synths are created equal. the DNA of a synth and how it even generates a waveform can differ massively from circuit to circuit. I have the A4 alongside a MKS-50, JX-3P and a Mono Lancet…and the A4 holds its own when it comes to bass (even without the second filter). Mind you, I do find that I have to lower the output of other synths in order to level out with the A4. More aggressive producers tend to have all the levels turned up, and in that case the A4 can be drowned out slightly.

Definitely in the ‘character’ camp The A4 is more unique and organic than most other analogs.

#84

FWIW I like fat girls with analog souls.

#85

One thing I’m really curious at is the new filter mode. The a4 filter 1 fades out the sound, while other analogs I used have a nice bassy rumbling when the filter is almost closed. Maybe the new filter mode changes this.

#86

IIRC the new filter mode will only change the reso behaviour.

#87

Btw, whenever i see a discussion about the “fatness” of oscilators, i remember the wise words of Greg st Regis of Studio Electronics, taken from a comment he made on a discussion about the SE Boomstar:

" Just wanted to address a comment I often see posted in various chats about oscillators and their fatnes, thiness, weedines, or whatever. With the oscillator, it’s a matter of generating an accurate waveform shape and keeping it in good tune, but not perfect. An oscillator waveform has no eq, no lows, no highs, no mids. All that is done by the filter and amplifier. The levels in and out of those circuits play a large part in the tone as well. At maximum oscillator mix level, we are introducing a little overdrive of the filter input. "

#88

I think that’s exactly what was missing, the resonant peak when closing the filter

#89

I think that’s exactly what was missing, the resonant peak when closing the filter[/quote]
But this will also be available for the A4 via the os update.

#90

Learning modular synthesis teaches you that the Oscillators are secondary to the signal path in front of them…but if you have a beefy analogue signal path and you don’t like the results, that means you need a different oscillator.

Hybrid synths are capable of the kind of analog fatness or saturation or roundness the OP was talking about- digital oscillators produce waves, just the same as analogs, and most have parameters (oscillator slop/drift) that mimic some characteristics of analog oscillators that give them inherently variable and waveform outputs at various stage of the filter and envelopes.

MI synths, Ensoniq SQs, and the Prophet 12 are all capable of varying degrees of (the sound component formerly known as “fatness”)- while never being able to completely match a true VCA, punch for punch.

When transistors overload they behave differently- some add just the right amount of saturation or distortion to the signal path that smooths out screaming resonance peaks and warms them over. This scientific phenomenon something that software simply cannot (yet) recreate. And this is a big source of the bass sound that some people strive for.

Simple tweaks to software governing the A4’s filters (which are really the main source of disappointment for me with the A4) are more than just Elektron paying lip service to the faint grumbling about the filter that’s persisted for the past 11 months: You don’t need a VCF to recreate the distortion effect- just the proper balance of Frequency Cutoff, Resonance and Envelope amount to overdrive the signal at the filter while maintaining the integrity of the sound.

Elektron is new to the analog synth game and built a very unique and compact analog synth capable of a wide array of sounds that are unique to the instrument, which is no small feat.

But it takes time with a brand new machine that controls unpredictable analog circuitry with a deep software interface to really understand how it responds and how to get it just right. The Prophet 12 was released with a kinda steppy filter that wasn’t worthy of the Prophet name- but a firmware update changed the algorithm and it is now a satisfyingly musical filter. Dave smith has been designing VCFs, DCFs, and DSP filters for 30 years and he needed more time to get it right too!

If people are already 100% satisfied, then the new filter mode- if it does what I’m sure it’s trying to do- will bring that number way up.

No one should have to route anything to anything to get that texture for their sound: there are oscialltors and sub oscillators driving a filter, an envelope and an amp- the resonance should be able to get wild and cause analog magic all on their own. The software change (as I said in the “night of machines post” when the AK was announced with the filter changes ) might be the under the radar change that has the greatest overall effect on the machine.

#91

I know I’ve already written a book about this, but whatever- read it or tl;dr it.

I think the fairest assessment I can give Is that I really like the tone/timbre of the A4 and can hear in my head the character I want to give to those tones for bass and I simply cannot right now.

It is a bit sterile. Perhaps this is the “unique character of the A4”, but I doubt it. There would be no changes to the filter software or some of the circuitry on the AK if the designers felt like it was 100% reflective of the product they set out to make.

I’ve never been 100% satisfied but I’ve held onto my A4 because I’m confident that the designers were also unsatisfied.

Which is a pretty special state of affairs for a product that just won “Gear of The Year”.

#92

…but as pointed out early on in the thread the lack of bass definition is surely do to the waveforms changing shape on lower octaves:

http://patcharena.com/a4-waveform-scopes-and-some-tips/

my guess is that AK won’t be doing that as they probably managed to fix it so bass response will be more solid…

#93

assignable key tracking would help a lot, i bet

not sure if that’s part of the new OS

#94

Assigning PW to key-tracking would be a useful and interesting modulation.

#95

Now that some people has put their hands on the AK, would be nice to hear how those oscillators sound throught the finetuned circuits.

Not interested in bass response only (some missunderstanding by some here), but in how a Square or a Saw sound in the lower octaves, unfiltered, no modulations, no fx etc… Specially interested in that pulse width “issue” at lower frequencies.

If anyone has both machines, A4 and AK, a straight OSC comparison would shut this debate

#96

wrt pulsewidth, Elektron have already spelled out on this thread that the oscillators are identical, as to whether they sound noticeably different at the jacks or not, time will tell !

#97

forget everything i said a few days ago i had a bad day, who cares about waveforms anyway :slight_smile:

all i can say for now is

thank you for the update
thank you for the update

i LOVE the unison and poly mode

this is the most awesome synth i ever used