Audio Routing Large setup / Individual Outputs

The Lounge General Discussion
#1

No doubt this will be a bit of a garbled post and I will be the first to admit I have better hardware then my abilities but like many I do enjoy the setup tinkering as much as playing!

Anyhow ive been slowly (kind of unintentionally) building up a fair bit of hardware over the years after selling off a lot of guitar equipment (damn Elektrons / (Insert random Synth)

Its got to the stage where I am now sitting on a pile of gear and would like to put it all together in one large setup rather then grabbing a box now and then off the shelf and putting it back, especially now I am having fun with the Cirklon and its “hook up all” attitude. However I am not particularly sure the best way to go about all this despite being fortunate to have some great bits of kit picked up from eBay over the years as listed below:

  1. Apogee Symphony MKII originally 24 In / 24 Out - last week was offered an upgrade module that now gives me 32 In / 32 Out but studio monitors uses 2 outs.

  2. Flock Patch 32 In / 32 Out Patchbay (software recallable routings)

  3. A load of Instrument hardware and guitars, some hardware mostly stereo out except the Elektrons Rytm MKII / Syntakt / Digi Keys which of course have Individual Out and Overbridge options, however last month I grabbed a Machinedrum and Monomachine to make things even more crazy when I eventually set them up.

  4. To complicate matters further :slight_smile: - I purchased a SSL Sigma Summing Mixer many many moons ago with a view to turn in the box tracks into specific groups / busses from my DAW to get into the Analogue domain. This was a romantic idea at the time (was probably pissed up reading about summing mixers and bus comps on Gearslutz forum and analogue heaven etc ) but im still on the fence about the % benefit of summing out the box.

Anyhow - my main conundrum is that originally I had many of my Instruments chucked into the FLOCK Patchbay inputs and the outputs hooked up to a few of the Apogee Inputs as required. This was working nice but then I kind of realised the instruments were not getting repatched and was always in a fixed routing in the patchbay, except the repatching of certain hardware into the Octatrack ABCD inputs for sampling! Therefore I have since torn it down and connected all my instrument outputs directly into the Apogee Inputs, effectively leaving my Patchbay empty for now.

I have quite a lot of pedal / rack FX not hooked up yet so my next thought was to keep Instruments in the Apogee Inputs and bundle FX / Processors into the Patchbay for Aux send / returns in my DAW. I am guessing this is prob the logical way to use it rather then chuck FX straight into the Apogee, however I guess I would still use the same amount of ins and outs to get them into my DAW but would have the option to have many FX to choose from in the Patchbay

I guess I would also still have to sacrifice for example 8 ins and 8 outs of the Apogee (nice number since D-Sub connections) for these FX / Pedals etc to be inserted into the DAW as FX send / returns in the DAW. I have only started experimenting with DAW Aux sends (always put FX in series of Instrument) so still unsure how important stereo FX compared to mono FX when blending into DAW tracks.

I did make a spreadsheet incorporating the Sigma Summing Mixer into the Patchbay but I believe it would gobble up most of the patchbay outputs. I guess maybe best to stick to tracking at the moment.

Any advice on if I am on the right track would be appreciated or any tips / short sightedness - though the above is a bit of a garbled early morning writeup.

A few others puzzles I have to consider is whether to use Overbridge for OB enabled machines to free up Apogee Individual Inputs for the likes of the MD and MM individual outputs or just use main stereo out for everything. I like the idea of Individual outs but I guess in Elektron machines a lot of mojo is on the FX bus main outs.

#2

Hey! I also love a bit of system config so I’m keen to share my thoughts and insight.

I have a far more modest setup but a similar one in terms of overall topography. I.e DAW, multiple hardware sources and processors, patchbays and mixer/interface. With some annoying channel limitations and areas where compromise is needed.

I will respond with deeper thoughts later and examples from my own setup that might be illuminating.

My initial thoughts are as follows:

You have an incredible patchbay. It would be a shame not to make use of it and it can certainly be helpful for your setup.

I think the devil is in the details here so a spreadsheet with a list of all gear, with all the inputs and outputs is a great place to start.

Ideally I would want to be able to route anything anywhere via the patchbay. However you might run out of inputs depending on the full gear list so some compromises will likely be needed.

How you work / record / jam etc is also unclear - do you want to multitrack everything to DAW (which DAW(s) btw?) Do you you want to be able to operate without the DAW loaded? This will influence your normalled/default patch bay routings perhaps.

If you want the Sigma involved it’s probably gonna need another (passive!) patchbay - so yeah focus on tracking and get that nice first maybe.

I feel the ‘obvious’ setup is likely a good place to start ->

All devices analogue ins and outs are on the patchbay(s).

Your hardware sound generators/samplers and fx/processor outs normalled to your interface inputs in a meaningful order.

Include main outs for those boxes with individual outs if possible so you can optionally take advantage of any master bus processing that is only on the main outs.

Your DAW outs are normalled to your most common destinations - fx inputs, sampling inputs etc.

Sigma IO sits on its own patchbay ready to be patched in for OTB summing but not normalled to anything as you’ll use this less often I suppose. And it will probably be all or nothing from the Sigma right? So maybe you can have a dsub patch panel if the kit is on dsub - don’t recall seeing one though. Not sure of the cost benefit for that - just a whacky thought!

Not had any direct experience with Overbridge so can’t comment directly but if you’re wanting to jam/record without the computer on or involved then you’ll need the analogue outs available too I suppose, but if not you could definitely save some channels there. But I’d agree it’s definitely good to have max options so you don’t have to keep recabling.

There are likely many great ways to set it all up and I’m keen to hear others thoughts!

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#3

Hey thanks for your detailed reply - much appreciated and given me a lot of thought already. Cool to see your examples when you have the time.

Ive uploaded a spreadsheet with all my inputs and outputs which made my jaw drop, im shocked so many when tallied up however ive included many ins and outs etc that I didn’t even remember I had and prob unlikely to use. I mean the Digitone Keys alone has a whopping 10 outputs with its 4 x stereo tracks and main outs, so guess would have to be a compromise or sacrifice the valuable Flock Patch to fund multiple traditional patchbays eg 2 x 96 bantams

Few things to note:

Apogee Symphony, Flock Patchbay and SSL Sigma is all Dsub.

Multitrack into DAW or Jam is the main aim. Currently Ableton Live my main DAW but have Logic / Bitwig etc also

I guesstimated FX processing as maybe 5 diff pieces of hardware (maybe overkill but prob not if wanting a set and leave setup)

Would be nice to be able to jam without the DAW loaded but not the end of the world if not possible. My Apogee has a standalone mode but not sure if I have the right card / modules for it - will investigate.

Flock Patchbay I don’t believe is typically like a normal one eg. normalisation configuration since basically a matrix controlled by software. I have a feeling my main model does not even have a default routing without the computer / iOS software running i.e. no standalone mode. I believe the crazy expensive higher models does sadly. However I do remember seeing in the manual a config to use it with an existing traditional patchbay so maybe im discounting some nice solutions, I will download the latest manual. I guess a compromise on instrument ins / outs and another Flock Patchbay might cover everything at a stretch but very expensive.

I guess not all Apogee outputs maybe used since Master track out of DAW requires 2 unless utilising tons of Sigma channels if external summing.

TX-6 Mixer (blue on spreadsheet) is currently incorporated as a sub mixer into 2 Apogee Inputs. I use this to hook up my portable small devices or demo something into its 6 stereo channels. Quite handy this way to quickly grab and go and return my portables as well as input the iPad into my DAW if need be. A few things currently hooked up to this might be chopped / sold on but guess does not impact the setup much since it’s part of a sub-mixer only using two main input channels of the Apogee. Also things like Syntakt vs Rytm - poss get rid of similar reduntat hardware etc if required to do so.

Interesting about the Sigma with its own patchbay - I kind of think I know how you mean as a possibility.

All fun and games and a nice headache haha

Audio Inputs and Outputs.xlsx (11.8 KB)

#4

Thanks for the detailed reply - very helpful. Yes it’s a nice headache to have!

I woke up early thinking about this and realised I’d not properly understood the real conundrum here which I think I now understand is as follows:

Too many inputs and outputs from your gear to have it all on the Flock -> how best to use the Flock (if at all) in this setup.

This is similar to the issue I have been facing - too many hardware inputs and outputs for my mixer/interface (Allen Heath SQ5) to have everything connected at the same time.

Here’s my setup for some context:

Multitrack to DAW (Cubase or Live) or jam with hardware and no DAW, and/or Force. I use the SQ5 as 32x32 interface and for sending to hardware samplers and FX/processors. I have my hardware outputs normalled via a (currently full!) 48 point patch bay to my 23 SQ5 inputs, with another 2x48 point patchbays ready to be installed to bring remaining hardware IO and an analogue mixer for OTB summing (A&H GS3) to the patch area, then patch as required.

One Moukey 8 x stereo channel submixer for small/guest/less often used for multitrack recording hardware.

Then the outs of the mixer are normalled via a 2nd 48 point patchbay to my common desintations -> Akai Force, UMC404HD for iPad inputs, KP3, other hardware inputs for external audio ins to filters etc.

Most common routes are normalled i.e. for tracking/jamming, then I’ll patch for OTB summing or unusual chains. And I can still do a fair bit of routing digitally using the SQ5 and/or DAW - i.e for example I can send from any sound generator -> KP3 -> Drambo FX -> Akai Force for sampling using just the SQ5 sends without needing to patch anything.

So kinda similar to the results that your Flock could achieve but far less elegant!

Back to your setup…

I remember reading all about the Flock range back when they came out, but wasn’t remembering the whole feature set… so yours doesn’t have standalone but that’s not a deal breaker for you if you’re happy to have the computer/DAW turned on even just to jam (I suppose you may as well record everything anyway and that would be required to do that, unless you record a stereo mix / multitrack into hardware).

DSub on your Flock, Apogee and Sigma is great but it forces you to do stuff in 8s without adding more/custom cabling/patchbays I guess, but cabling should be a servant not a master.

I think a reanalysis of your objectives and prioritizing them is a good place to start.

Tracking - you want to be able to record multitrack into the DAW so you need any outputs you want to record either available at a patchbay or hardwired into your Apogee.

FX / processing chains - you want to use the Flock at it’s most useful - to build recallable chains. So the units you might want to chain together should be on the Flock, plus some IO to the Apogee to get in and out of the DAW.

BUT there’s too few IO on the Flock for everything… so either compromise to use the flock, or sell it and go full passive patchbays with enough points. Or some combo of these two approaches.

Am I right in this assessment?

Here are some “compromise” potential mappings (which I think you’ve already basically suggested/tried!) -

OUTS on Flock
16 outs from Apogee (to achieve 5 stereo / 10 mono FX sends from DAW, and stereo monitoring)
16 outs from your hardware including all 10 mono FX, then another 6 channels - compromise time! 2 Axe-FX, 4 Octatrack outs?

INS on Flock
16 ins to Apogee, 10 ins to FX units, 4 Octatrack ins (maybe?), leaving 2 for a choice of other inputs that might be involved in an FX / processing chains…

Overflow - (some of?) remaining hardware outputs connected directly to the remaining 16 Apogee inputs, remaining 16 Apogee outputs connected directly to the remaining hardware external inputs. But you cannot patch them with the Flock, only via the DAW = latency = phase issues = mess unless the Apogee has direct through routing with very little latency?

OR…

Maybe, as I think you suggested, there’s a way to add patchbays for the Flock patchbay so you can patch stuff into the Flock as needed.

Here’s a scenario with 2 additional 96 point patchbays - see picture further below which might explain it better at a glance!

OUTS on 96 point bantam #1 - nearly every (54?) output can fit. You’ll just need to lose 6 channels somewhere if I’m reading your spreadsheet right.

normalled to ->

INS on 96 point bantam #1 - Flock ins 1-32 (32) and Apogee ins 1-16 (16) - maybe the main stereo outs of your hardware + TX6, and/or Sigma are the ones normalled to your Apogee inputs on bantam patch points 33-48? Then the individual outs from hardware, and FX outs etc are into the Flock on 1-32.

Flock sits between the 2 96 point bantam patchbays connected over DSub - this way you can build custom chains from the bantam patchbay normalled paths, but repatch into the Flock as needed? I.e if you need hardware output #33+ into the flock, you can just repatch that to an IN between 1-32 on the bantam #1.

Flock 32 OUTS (from 96 point bantam #1)
Flock 32 INS (to 96 point bantam #2)

OUTS on 96 point bantam #2 - 32 outs from Flock and 16 outs from Apogee.
INS to FX / processor inputs, hardware external inputs - 30 in total according to your spreadsheet - yay at least they fit! Leaves 16/18 patch points which can go to your remaining Apogee Ins.

Complex! Maybe overly so. But perhaps it works.

And finally incorporating the Sigma - DSub patching using one of these perhaps:

Hardwire Apogee outs 1-16 to the Sigma, then patch in the 17-32 Apogee outs using a panel when you want to do OTB summing.

You’d need the 2x Apogee DSub outs, 2x Bantam DSub ins (which remain patched for normal use / routing via patchbays) and the 2x Sigma DSub ins to appear on the DSub patch panel then you could flip from Apogee -> bantam/Flock/bantam -> Apogee etc
to
Apogee -> Sigma for 32 channels output from DAW, (well, 30 if you still need monitoring from the Apogee) then stereo from Sigma back into Apgoee for mixdown.

Phew! I made a drawing too:

Example for Flock headache.drawio
Example for Flock headache.drawio1091×736 32.2 KB

Right - gonna let you chew on all that.

All that being said, and as a result of thinking this all through, my gut is telling me it might be far simpler to sell the Flock and get 3x 96 point bantams then it’s all there ready to patch in a more consistent / typical layout, rather than this 16 channels do this/16 other channels do something slightly different approach we are pondering. All good fun though!

#5

Why don’t you hire a professional studio designer/technician to help you with configuring the whole setup?

#6

Holy crap - thanks for the detailed reply!!! Will grab some coffee and give it a right analysis!

Yes you hit the nail on the head really - all singing dancing Flock but not enough i/o.

Guess flogging that will easily pay for some Patchbays and allow me not to worry about powering it up or the DAW if my Apogee is indeed standalone. I had 2 x 96 in mind but ive prob missed the Sigma!!

Righty will read, reread and get back - much appreciated!!

#7

Thats a very good point but didnt think home studio project would grow and get this far lol.

I do plan on moving at some point so I would def look into that for room treatment etc

#8

You’re welcome! I enjoy the config puzzles. But please take everything I’ve said with a pinch of salt - I could be making some fundamental errors / omissions and @LCVL is right - a professional studio designer would be better placed than me to advise here.

There are most likely many great configurations, some more optimal than others and the way you work and what you use most needs to drive the planning rather than simply what other people would do.

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#9

Noted thanks!! I grabbed a patchbay excel template last night so started playing around with a few ideas - I will mess about this weekend and post my results!

One question - is it normal for the outputs for studio monitors to be part of the patchbay? Bit of a pain otherwise as it is two outs of the Symphony’s 32 channels (means a split in the Dsub if not part of a D-Sub Patchbay).

Would seem a bit weird having it as part of a patchbay also since it’s kind of a fixed / permanent connection in my setup. Then again in saying that - it would allow the monitors to be moved about eg reconfigure / patch the monitors into the Sigma direct monitoring output somehow for mix down or even directly to say an Elektron for a solo machine Jam and skip the Audio Interface completely when computer powered down

#10

Cool! I had a play around with your IO list for where I might put things on the patchbay too - see attached for some thoughts. I left the inputs and outputs I couldn’t fit into the available channel in their original columns and tried to choose the most redundant given what I know about the gear - but of course the precise choice of what appears normalised to the Flock, and in what order should be decided by your workflow and what you most commonly want to chain, and what you most commonly want to multitrack.

Audio Inputs and Outputs JJ.xlsx (17.1 KB)

I think the main things I would consider are:

  1. “what devices / inputs / outputs will I likely want to build complex recallable chains with?” (where the mapping is more than just “one source to one target” because that’s simple enough to do with the bantam patchbays),

  2. “what do I want to multitrack the most often and therefore have normalled to the Apogee ins?”

So all your FX ins and outs would probably be normalled to the Flock, then your most commonly used sources and external input destinations too, along with some Apogee IO, decided by your most common use cases. You mention you’ve only recently started using sends from DAW to hardware, and that is a great way to deploy FX so you can have more than one source going through one FX unit.

Here’s an article I read about someone else’s Flock setup that might be interesting:

Your query about mono vs stereo for sends is totally context dependent - a mono source won’t benefit from being on a stereo send, but if you’re using any kind of stereo FX then you’ll want the return to be stereo. Most stereo FX devices have a mono input anyway so you don’t need to send a stereo signal, unless the source is stereo (drum bus with some elements panned left and right for example).

Since the Flock is basically a Matrix and there’s no normalisation from input 1 to output 1, the outs and ins for the same device can have the same numbers to help you remember which number is what thing. See the spreadsheet for some thoughts on how I might lay it all out.

Re the point about monitors in the patchbay, I don’t think this is normal practice at all but I suggested it, exactly for the reason you said, i.e. given that your interface has DSub outs and you might only have DSub->DSub cables, you might have to bring Apogee channels 31-32 to a bantam patchbay for now, then use bantam out to the monitors, or DSub->wide fan tail / long cables to Jack/XLR to reach the monitor ins.

I don’t evenknow if a cable that goes DSub->Dsub for 6 channels then has Jacks/XLR on the remaining 2 channels exists. Don’t recall seeing one, but surely it’s possible and might be something that other Apogee users have wanted?

There is of course a risk here - if you accidentally stick a patch cable into those patch points when the monitors are turned on, then you might cause a pop/bump on your monitors. But if you’ve got a monitor controller between the patchbay and your monitors, you can always mute them before patching. That is of course if you see any value in ever patching the monitors from something other than the Apogee, like your Sigma as you mentioned? Although I don’t see any advantage to that over simply monitoring the recording input from your DAW via the Apogee during a Sigma OTB summing mixdown.

#11

Much appreciated for your new mockup - looks interesting. I will print it off when I get home and have a play. Last night I was experimenting with making the Main Outs (Elektrons) normalled to the Apogee Ins and the Individual Outputs as an optional later in the patchbay (particularly for the Overbridge enabled ones Rytm, Digitone etc which may work well as USB) - basically reverse of your new draft. I think with all the ideas put together there will be a nice solution.

Thanks for the FLOCK link, interesting read - it is a very nice bit of kit however crazy price. I was lucky to find one on eBay used when they were not so well known so had a great deal.

Yes I have spilt D-Subs before (due to the Studio monitors being part of the 8 channels and wanting the remaining 6 back into another D-Sub). It basically requires me to go D-Sub XLR M to Sub XLR Female but not connecting the Monitor XLR’s. A bit of a faff but doable.

Noted the mono vs stereo sends - I think I understand much better now. I was planning on playing with my stereo reverb today as a DAW send but Sport on TV has side tracked me!!

The more I think about being able to plug monitors into another output source might not be a bad idea. Last night I established I can use my Apogee without the DAW but still need the Apogee software therefore rely on the computer for a Jam. I guess being able to patch to an instruments outputs for a jam might be handy though!!

Cheers!!

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