I was wondering if it’s possible to fine adjust midi cc values from Digitone or Digitakt to Ableton software Synths? Like Push does with help of the “Shift” button. For many parameters, let’ say for the filter of “Wavetable” Synth from Ableton, it steps and it’s not precise enough. Any ideas?
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MIDI is often 7-bit, meaning 127 values.
Can solve it using a device with encoders, and set Ableton to increment/decrement.
Or possibly some form of MIDI processing, maybe Modulat (from Isotonik) could enable you build yourself something? Or some other M4L device?
I know very little about the Digitakt/Digitone so can’t help specifically with that though.
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Thanks a lot for your answer! I was looking for a M4L device but can’t find something to work properly. Apart from Digitone and Digitakt, i have a Roland Pro 800 Midi Keyboard with excelent Knobs and faders and they work super in most cases but for really deep sound design push was the best with shift button.
I recently sold my push 2 before i realized that my roland isn’t capable of this cool feature 
Then i thought maybe a arturia minilab mkii or the new minilab 3 could do the job better than the Roland Pro 800 because it has a “shift” button but i think this is more for onboard functionality then activating fine adjustment function in ableton… I really don’t know.
Maybe looking for a cheap Push 1 than buying other midi controllers that work the same way as the Roland? Any suggestions or other workarounds, tips, tricks are welcome 
I researched this further for you (I was interested too). Here’s what I found:
The simplest way, is to have a controller that has encoders (not pots), and is capable of sending ‘relative CC’. You then map your encoder to Ableton, and there is a selector box in the bottom left which allows you to select ‘Relative’.
There are several types of Relative, and you’ll have to choose the correct type for your controller with trial and error. I got this working from my Nektar P6 straight away, and it worked well.
Ableton doesn’t recognize NRPNs natively. However it does recognize 14bit CCs. This is where you have a control that uses two CC numbers together to have a greater level of detail.
Usually the first CC will be between 0 and 31 (the ‘coarse’ value), and the second will be between 32 and 63, and will usually be exactly 32 higher.
Some synths send this from their controls. I tested this with my Bass Station 2, the filter sends 16 and 48, I selected ‘Absolute 14bit’ in Ableton, and it worked well.
Now, in theory, it should be possible to set up any controller, and have two controls, one for coarse control, and one for fine control, and use 2 controls for any parameter you need fine control over. You’d get in the general area with the coarse control, then fine-tune with the fine.
In practice, however, there is an issue: Ableton expects to receive both CC’s whenever you move either control. In my setup all my MIDI goes through my Ipad running Drambo, and it was easy to fix this problem with a few modules. It should be possible with any other MIDI processing solutions as well, such as MTP/Bome, Mozaic, Streambyter etc.
Hope that helps some!
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hi, thank you for your research and your effort, that will certainly help me in the future since it is a function that I was not aware of as an ableton user. However, I have to say that I tried everything today but unfortunately without success. Neither the Roland A-800 Pro nor the Digitakt or Digitone can cope with the different settings. Relative or Absolute 14-bit work properly. In the normal absolute mode every midi controller works as it should, but not in fine tune mode like the push when the shift button is held down. I think I can’t avoid getting a used push 1 just for this purpose, because I think it’s really important, e.g. to be able to set the “fors kit pop” synthesizer in the range of 0.000. Of course, you can also use a mouse and hold shift on keyboard, but staring at the screen again instead of staying with the machines doesn’t quite match to my workflow. I’ll try a little more tomorrow but I don’t think it will change much. Thank you again for your work, that helped a lot!
If you are interested in other gear besides the Push, the Midi Fighter Twister (16 encoders) can be set to relative encoder mode, and the Intech EN16 (also 16 encoders) supports both relative mode and 14bit MIDI CCs so it would work a couple of different ways.
Just tried the Twister with Fors Pop and it can access the full range of parameters even though it is only 7-bit MIDI when it is set in Relative mode.
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Midi Fighter Twister! Cool, really the full range in Fors Kit Pop? The second one, i think it’s the “Spectra” parameter shows 0.00 but it steps with “normal midi controllers” like 0.00 to 1.00 and 2.00 and so on. With mouse and Shift held down like 0.00 to 0.10 and 0.20 and so on. The other Paramters even 0.01 to 0.02. But spectra is the only one where you can really here the stepping like no interpolation with my Roland A-800 pro or Digitone or Digitakt. I’ll give the Twister defenetly a try, didn’t had this one on my radar 
Thank you so much man! Which Relative mode btw?
In Ableton, the Relative mode BinOffset works with the Twister.
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Ok thanks, i will order it as soon as i have the money for it 
Can you try something for me? I would like to know if the twister’s encoders remember the position and start there where i left them. For example, if I have two or three different synths in a project, let’s say three fors kit pop next to each other with different sounds and i want to start where i left it without jumping values when i change the synth channel and start tweaking. Could you try it for me if you have the time? It has time!
The short answer is that there will not be any jumping due to the encoders retaining absolute parameter values, because they do not retain values when in relative mode.
It helps to understand how the relative encoder mode on the Twister works. When set to relative, a Twister encoder will send a value of 65 when turned clockwise and 63 when turned anti-clockwise. This value does not change with the velocity of encoder rotation (some devices send more extreme values the faster you twist the encoder), so it is always either 63 or 65. When you tell Ableton the control is a relative encoder, it knows to interpret a value of 63 as “decrease” and 65 as “increase”.
This scheme means that the Twister does not store the absolute parameter numbers or positions for any of the devices you are using it to control. The Twister just sends 63 or 65, and Ableton does the interpretation to decrease or increase the selected parameter from its current value. You should not get any parameter jumping when you switch between parameters this way.
Some other devices have a more sophisticated relative mode that changes the value based on how quickly the user is turning the encoder. They typically work where values greater than 64 are interpreted as a parameter increase, and values less than 64 are a decrease. But instead of just sending fixed values of 63 and 65 like the Twister, these devices will send larger numbers (e.g. 85, 92, 107) as you increase the rotation speed clockwise, or smaller numbers (e.g. 58, 49, 35) as you spin it faster anti-clockwise. The receiving device can use this information to make small parameter adjustments at slow rotation velocities and bigger jumps in parameter values at higher rotation velocities.
Anyway, the Twister scheme is pretty simple since it just sends 2 possible values. I do not think you will have any problems with the parameter values jumping when you switch synths or parameters in Ableton.
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Wow, thanks for the detailed answer/explanation. That overwhelms me a little but the info is worth a lot. I’ll have to try it to make my experiences with it. I’m glad that there are a few other ways to control software synths than with the push, because I really don’t want to have one any more, neither the old nor the new one. This thing always just stressed me out 
But the Twister seems to be a device that fits to my simple needs 
Thank’s again man!
I thought I may have given too much info, but figured others might find this useful if they see this thread and have questions about how relative mode works. It will make more sense once you have a suitable controller and can see it in operation.
Off topic, but I bought a DN sound pack of yours recently and enjoy it. Nice work!
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That was my thought too. Even if it still overwhelms me, it is already quite helpful for others who visit this thread. I think it’s good to get clear and detailed information. But every beginning is difficult
I’m glad that you like the Sound Pack and that you enjoy it. And thank you for your support! 