I have no idea what's going on

Elektron Gear Monomachine
#1

I just got the MnM on Monday and I’m really trying hard to learn how it all works. I wrote out this cool little song thing and saved both the KIT that I used as well as saving it in SONG mode. When I reload the song, it sounds totally different, even on the same kit. Parts are missing, many of the sequences I programmed are totally gone, and it’s just pretty much not even remotely close to what I did.

On top of that, when I save a song, then load another one, the first one seems to still be playing. It’s like no matter what song or kit I load, it’s still playing the exact same patterns. Then I reload the original song, and it’s now playing at a different tempo.

Can someone explain what the hell is going on? Luckily, nothing I’m writing now is really necessary for saving, but if I can’t figure this out, the MnM will be useless to me.

1 Like
MIDI Question - New owner
#2

A Song is just a list of Pattern numbers. Did you edit the Patterns in the first Song you made after you saved it? If so, you overwrote the musical information in your first Song. Use different Pattern numbers and Kits when you make your next Song.

#3

Peter, let me just start by saying thank you for your help.

Let me see if I understand this right. A SONG simply saves the order that patterns will play in, no matter what kits are loaded up, correct? It saves no actual sequence or sound information.

A KIT saves all sound banks assigned to patterns (A01-H16) plus their sequenced material, correct? So if I load up 6 sounds on bank A01 and program 6 sequences, plus 6 MIDI SEQ sequences, then I go to A02, change the 6 sounds, program 6 more sequences and 6 other MIDI SEQ sequences, then I save the KIT, when I reload that KIT, all those sounds and sequences should show up in their respective slots, correct? Each bank can have its own set of sounds and sequences? Then whatever SONG I load will dictate how those patterns play?

I could swear that I did all that saving, but when I reloaded the KIT, parts were missing. If what I wrote above is the case, I will have to experiment more.

What I assume this means is that if I want to write a full song, I need to save both the KIT and the SONG separately? Then when I want to go play it back, I have to load both the KIT and the SONG in order to have it play back properly? And if I don’t care about how the patterns play, I never need to save the SONG, just the KITS?

I also tried to use the C6 software to reload the OS just in case there was a bug in it (I bought the MnM used), but I couldn’t figure out how to do it. I went into the SYSEX receive menu and hit receive, then ORG, and hit send in C6, but nothing happened. I tried looking in both the manual for the C6 and the MnM and couldn’t find info on reloading the OS. I also did a factory reset as soon as I got the unit just to start from scratch.

Another weird thing I’ve noticed is something weird with the delay. I program a little hi-hat pattern on the offbeat and on some of them, I p-lock the delay so that it turns on to give a little extra flourish or whatever. So let’s say I put that delay on the 3rd hat of a 16 beat pattern hitting at step 11 then when step 15 plays, it has a slightly high pitched glitch on top of it. If I remove step 11, the glitch goes away. If I put back step 11, but turn off the p-lock delay, the glitch still occurs. It’s very weird.

I can’t imagine that these will be the last of my questions, and I’m really glad this forum exists. The MnM is a beast so far, and I can deal with and get used to quirks and a weird workflow as long as I can understand how to work around them.

#4

Hmm… Have you read the manual regarding this section? A Kit saves 6 sounds (one for each track) and can be linked to a pattern. If you want a different pattern to have different sounds you need to assign a new kit to it. As long as you’re sure to save each pattern and kit separately then there should be no errors when loading.
Songs are used to specify a sequence of patterns to play. Not sure what you mean by bank - all info related to track sounds is stored within kits, and all info related to sequencer (including trigs and their plocks) is stored within patterns.

#5

I’d do a hard reset as a first

Then load just 1 bank of patterns with their associated kits, so the machine would be about 25% full.

Give you plenty of scope to start from scratch and get ideas from the preloaded stuff.

#6

Ok, so if I have pattern A01 playing KIT1 with a particular set of sequences, then I want pattern A02 to play different sounds with different sequences, I need to save 2 separate KITS? That doesn’t make any sense. If I had a song that has 16 different patterns with different kits for some of them, I need to load multiple kits just to play one song? That sounds ridiculous. I can’t believe that’s the case.

Does the KIT save all the patterns, machines, and sequences for all banks A-H? What do I do if I want bank A to have different machines then bank B?

My impression is that for a complex song, you may end up using 20 different kits. How does that happen and how do people not run out of space for all that? I assume that’s where SNAPSHOTS come in? I still have to wrap my head around that one.

To me, it seems more logical that the KITS should hold the sounds, and the SONGS should hold the patterns, but that’s obviously not how it works, I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around it.

On another note, is there a way to check whether the C6 is actually communicating with my device? I tried loading some DIGIPRO syx files last night and I couldn’t figure that out either.

#7

Ok, so if I have pattern A01 playing KIT1 with a particular set of sequences, then I want pattern A02 to play different sounds with different sequences, I need to save 2 separate KITS? That doesn’t make any sense. If I had a song that has 16 different patterns with different kits for some of them, I need to load multiple kits just to play one song? That sounds ridiculous. I can’t believe that’s the case.

Does the KIT save all the patterns, machines, and sequences for all banks A-H? What do I do if I want bank A to have different machines then bank B?

My impression is that for a complex song, you may end up using 20 different kits. How does that happen and how do people not run out of space for all that? I assume that’s where SNAPSHOTS come in? I still have to wrap my head around that one.

To me, it seems more logical that the KITS should hold the sounds, and the SONGS should hold the patterns, but that’s obviously not how it works, I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around it.

On another note, is there a way to check whether the C6 is actually communicating with my device? I tried loading some DIGIPRO syx files last night and I couldn’t figure that out either.[/quote]
No, you don’t need different kits. You just need to have the same kit on all of your patterns (if you want the same kit to play on all of your patterns) so when Song Mode retrieves that pattern, it will also retrieve the kit that’s associated to that pattern.

A kit only saves machines, a kit does not save patterns. Patterns are automatically saved when you create it.

If you want Bank A to have different machines, then you need to ensure the patterns on Bank A are each associated with the Kit (collection of machines) you wish it to be tied with.

Again, you do not need a different kit for each pattern…
Songs are just a stringing together of patterns.

This thread should help with waveforms for the MM.

http://elektron-users.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=28&func=view&id=26280&catid=9

#8

Correct.

No. As pointed out above by Anfim, a Kit stores the sound settings for the 6 internal synthesis tracks that are currently in use. See page 18 of the manual.

If you start a new pattern and keep saving sound settings into the same Kit as you used for the previous pattern, you will overwrite the sound settings that you used for the previous Pattern.

Each bank has 16 Patterns. You can associate any one of the 128 available Kits with a Pattern. When you select a Pattern, the associated Kit is called up and assigns the synthesis and effects settings for the 6 internal synthesis tracks.

To store a full song, you need to:
[ul]
[li]create the sequence data for each Pattern; Pattern data is saved automatically[/li]
[li]create the sounds you want the Pattern to use and save them in a Kit; if two Patterns need to use the same sounds then you can link to the same Kit, but if a Pattern needs unique sounds then you need to save those sounds in a Kit,[/li]
[li]enter the order that the patterns play in with the number of repeats in each in the Song mode and save the Song[/li]
[/ul]

If Song 1 uses (for example) Patterns A01, A12, and B06, then DO NOT edit the data in those Patterns when you create your next song. Use other Patterns. The same goes for Kits.

If you follow these guidelines, then when you play back the various Songs that you have recorded then they will sound as you expect them to.

It’s very unlikely that you will need to reload the OS. If you do so, the correct procedure is given on page 111 of the manual. The SysEx receive function in the GLOBAL > FILE menu is for reloading data that you or others have previously backed up to a computer.

The MM is full of small mysteries and delights. Many people find it frustrating initially. Many people lose their early work before they get to grips with the storage system. If there is something that you really want to keep, do a SysEx Send of ‘ALL’ to get a full backup of the machine that you can later recall. But have fun in the meantime!

#9

Ok, so if I have pattern A01 playing KIT1 with a particular set of sequences, then I want pattern A02 to play different sounds with different sequences, I need to save 2 separate KITS? That doesn’t make any sense. If I had a song that has 16 different patterns with different kits for some of them, I need to load multiple kits just to play one song? That sounds ridiculous. I can’t believe that’s the case.

Does the KIT save all the patterns, machines, and sequences for all banks A-H? What do I do if I want bank A to have different machines then bank B?

My impression is that for a complex song, you may end up using 20 different kits. How does that happen and how do people not run out of space for all that? I assume that’s where SNAPSHOTS come in? I still have to wrap my head around that one.

To me, it seems more logical that the KITS should hold the sounds, and the SONGS should hold the patterns, but that’s obviously not how it works, I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around it.
[/quote]
It’s intended functionality, makes sense once you get why it’s like that. A kit holds machine data for 6 tracks. Banks A-H hold 128 patterns between them, right? And you have 128 kit slots in total, so the idea is that if you wanted to, each pattern could have a totally different set of sounds. But at the same time you have the freedom to link many patterns to one kit, so that changes to the machines on those kits are preserved across all those patterns. Using many kits isn’t a problem (what else would you use the kits for??), rather it provides flexibility.

#10

But yea, verily, 'tis true. However, you just have to save the Kit when you have created it. When the Pattern plays, it automatically calls up its associated Kit - you don’t have to manually load it.

No. The Kit is just a set of 6 sounds for the 6 internal synthesis tracks.

For each Pattern that has unique sounds, you save a new Kit.

The MM, like all the Elektron instruments, encourages live jamming and it is possible to make dynamic musical pieces with just a few patterns and kits by tweaking the patterns and kits in real time.

Of course, it is also possible to pre-program songs in fine detail. For a very complex pre-programmed Song, you may want to use a lot of Patterns. If those Patterns have different Kits associated with some of them, you may use quite a few Kits. There are slots to store 128 Kits.

When you need more room, then you can back up all or some of the MM’s data to computer via SysEx Send.

If your MM has a +Drive (I presume yours has) then it can store 128 Snapshots, each Snapshot being a save of the entire MM active memory.

To repeat:
[ul]
[li]Patterns hold the sequence data and are saved automatically,[/li]
[li]Kits a set of synthesis assignments for the 6 tracks; you have to save them but the Pattern recalls them automatically when played,[/li]
[li]Songs are lists of which Patterns to play in what order; you have to save them.[/li]
[/ul]

Maybe we should get the basics sorted out first and come back to this once you have become comfortable with the MM architecture?

#11

I see, so there’s no way to save and load patterns. When I write a pattern to A01, that stays there indefinitely unless I change it? I do have the +DRIVE version, so that means I can have multiple SNAPSHOTS, which seems to give me a lot more space.

So if I wanted to write 16 songs, I could make SONG1 in Bank A, SONG2 in Bank B, and so on? Then I assign whatever KITS I want to each PATTERN, and I can change those at will?

Also, to clarify, let’s say I want A01 to use 6 tracks (1 drum, 1 bass, 4 synths). Then I want A02 to use the same drums and bass, and 2 of the same synths, but 2 new synths. For A02, I’d have to copy the Machines from A01, then alter 2 of the tracks, then save it as a new kit different from A01?

This is starting to make more sense. It’s def. mad confusing coming from 17 years of DAW use, but how y’all explained it is def. better than how the manual does.

Regarding the C6 stuff, do I need to have the MnM connected directly to my MIDI interface (Presonus Firepod), or can I go from the interface to my Yamaha RJC8 MIDI Hub (with the MnM on channel 5) and do the updates via there? I can’t find a way to choose the channel in the C6 software.

And yes, I guess I should figure out the basics before getting more advanced. haha. I hate not being advanced. I WANNA BE AMAZING NOW!

#12

Patterns are the basis of the MM so, yes, they stay unchanged until you change them. They are saved automatically and so you simply select which pattern the MM is playing at any given time.

A Snapshot is a backup of the entire memory (Songs, Patterns, Kits, Global setups) of the MM.

The MM can store 24 Songs. Songs do not belong in any particular Bank.

In each Song, you can use any of the Patterns from any of the Banks.

Some people like to group all the Patterns that they use in one Song in a single Bank of Patterns, but the Banks are just groups of Patterns with the same prefix (A, B, etc).

You can associate any of the 128 Kits with the Pattern you are working on. Just load the Kit that you want to use with the Pattern. If you make changes to the Kit, save it to a new Kit number. The Pattern will automatically call up the associated Kit when the Pattern is played.

The MM manual is fine. It’s just that you started out with different assumptions.

MIDI SysEx messages do not have any specific channel associated with them: they are broadcast to all instruments. MIDI gear is programmed to only respond to those SysEx messages that are intended for it. The channel settings should not matter for this purpose.

Your MIDI interface and MIDI hub may have some kind of message filtering built-in or set up by you. Some poor quality MIDI interfaces cannot transmit SysEx at all. If you are having problems, it is generally wise when diagnosing them to simplify the system as much as possible. Why not try a direct connection? Do play close attention to the instructions for SysEx transfer in the manuals for the MM, C6, and your MIDI interface.

#13

Yep, edit the Kit that you want to use with Pattern A01 and save the Kit (for example, as Kit # 73 with a meaningful name “1d1b4s” or whatever makes sense to you).

For pattern A02, it might be quicker to load Kit 73 and then save as Kit # 74 (“1d1b2s2n” or whatever) make changes to the machines on the two different tracks and then save the updated Kit # 74.

1 Like
#14

Gotcha. Ok. This is all making a TON more sense now. I think I pretty much have all the basic stuff understood. I’ll figure out the sysex stuff once I’m more proficient with this situation.

So to simplify and make sure I am on the right page:

  1. Patterns are saved automatically in their respective slots.
  2. Any KIT can be assigned to any pattern, or multiple patterns.
  3. SONGS are simply a way to tell the MnM in which order to play patterns.
  4. SNAPSHOTS save the ENTIRE MnM, which allows for multiple sets of 128 patterns/kits/etc.
  5. I can have different KITS in a SONG by assigning said KITS to respective patterns. If I change a KIT and want it to be distinct to said pattern, I need to save it as a new KIT. If I want the KIT to change across all patterns that it is assigned to, I just overwrite the original KIT.

I think I’ll go and do a factory reset and start from scratch so that I don’t confuse myself.

Thank you to everyone who helped me out. It’s much appreciated.

Now I just need to finish work so I can go home and ignore my wife and dogs for another 5 hours. Haha.

2 Likes
#15

:+1:

#16

Awesome. Time to go and become a techno music superstar.