TL;DR
Is Rytm good for a hybrid setup? Or should I just be as well set with Ableton + Push 2 ?
QUESTION IN LONG FORMAT:
I’ve mostly been workning out of the box until now, using various Elektron gear, pedal effects and some synths. But recently I’ve taken the decision to move ITB and start using Ableton more.
I’m quite keen on trying the hybrid method, and I’ve setup a similar workflow as Martun Sturtzer which he describes here:
and here
Basically, he uses Ableton and Push 2 for sequencing, effects, and to control outboard synths, and sometimes runs some software synths as well. Looks like a super productive setup, although a bit hard to maintain.
I’ve also acquired a cat as he has, but mine is still chewing on cords and messing things up, but one day I hope he’ll be as a good companion as Neptune is to Martin.
So I’ve been wondering whether I should keep the Rytm, or move my drums entirely into Ableton.
So I have a few questions:
What is your experience with using Rytm in a hybrid setup?
What does the hands-on experience of Rytm add to programming drums with Ableton\Push? From my little experience with making beats on the Push 2, I feel that I can much more easily setup complex rhythms on Rytm using trig conditions, conditional trigs, and LFOs. Will I be able to do something similar in Ableton/Push, and is it as easy-2-use?
Is the master channel on Rytm anything to hold on to when using Ableton? I assume that for compression then Ableton should work well, but not sure about the distortion. Note that I also have an Analog Heat and the Decapitator VST for distortion.
Just for the curious, then this is the gear that I have in my studio, and Rytm is the only dedicated drum machine.
It’s just that I stuck to my hardware workflow for such a long time, not giving DAWs a change. And then when I finally took a dive into Ableton I was just blown away over how much easier it was to work with that system. The techno that I was making was instantly much much better than anything I’ve made with the Rytm. But mousing around when f.x. making a live recording is not so inspiring.
Sooo having said that, I feel that a hybrid system might combine both worlds. The hands-on of the the Rytm, in addition to the amazing possibilities of Ableton to layer endless effects chains on top of what the Rytm is outputting.
So I’m just curious how others that have gone down that road feel about the experience
I always use my rytm, + the rest of my setup, alongside ableton and have developed a flow that works well for me. I typically use the rytm’s onboard sequencer for virtually everything to do with the machine, only exception is if I want to play a track chromatically since the push is a lot better in that regard. If I’m doing something more obtuse, like converting a breakbeat into midi, duplicating a drum beat within ableton, etc. I’ll just make a midi track, transpose all the drums to fit within the rytm’s C-2 - B-2’s trigger notes, and record the pattern into the rytm’s sequencer by just playing the clip in ableton and hitting the record button on the rytm. There tends to be a little latency here but I just nudge the tracks over to fit the timing I want.
I find the elektron sequencers really nice for drums, p-locking stuff like hh decay, having musically-grounded chance variables (i.e. 1:2, 3:4, 6:8, etc chance instead of just % based), and opening up the performative aspects of the rytm with muting, etc. I’m willing to make my setup a little less all-in-one to have better controls of these features. While all of these things can exist within the push/ableton live (especially with max4live) paradigm, its not as elegant of a solution in my experience.
The master channel question to me is on a case by case basis. When I do use it, its to use the distortion and compression circuit in parallel to the rest of the drums. I generally do the bulk of my gain staging + mixing within ableton, not on the machines making the sounds, so it’s not often I use the master track for this workflow. I find myself more often using the master channel to route other sounds through. By turning off the voice routing of all the tracks to the main outputs, you can use the external ins to send something through the compressor. With p-locks and the LFO you can really get some wild stuff going that VST compressors would be a little more work to use for.
I’ll need to dive deeper into this later and possibly will come back with some questions.
So if I’m getting you right, then you are sequencing the compressor, right??? That sounds pretty awesome, although I find it hard to imagine what comes out of that or even the usecase. I guess I’ll just have to give it a try Can you give some more examples how you would use that trick? So are you thinking of this as a bit of a sequenced pumping effect or something like that?
If you are careful to match the peaks of the uncompressed signal vs the compressed signal you can sequence/modulate the mix knob for some hypnotic effects. In a mix it will act as if you are bringing a sound to the front/pushing it to the back. Not a every track use-case, just something fun to do every now and again. If you want to really get wild you can p-lock the attack, release, threshold, mix, and volume to give you different flavors of transient shaping while keeping the volume of the signal in line with the dry audio.
Using it as a pumping effect works really well too with the exponential envelope acting as a sidechain, though I don’t use much “pumping” compression in my music so I’m only familiar with this use case theoretically.
Nearly all the time I use the compressor as a send effect for other stuff I just keep it unmodulated though, but its always fun to make the most of whatever is in front of you!!
My experience is, that I can’t live without both sides. Hybrid is the way for me. Creating on hardware like the rytm is so inspiring, but when it comes to work on audio nothing beats a daw. And as you are able to easily combine both nowadays, I say it’s perfect. For me at least.
Both have pros and cons. I say utilize the pros of both, often elimination the con of the other.
I don’t have an AR, but my Digis have always paired great with Ableton for me when I opt for a hybrid workflow. I have found it very easy to have them sequence themselves, have them sequence VSTs, and also to use Ableton to do longer sequences, all together and pretty seamlessly.
I have a Rytm MKii i use in a hybrid setup and love it. I have an Ableton template setup so when i open it i just need to hit play and then work on the Rytm while monitoring the audio coming out of Ableton. The thing I enjoy most is i can multitrack and apply FX to each track in real time which works great for me. Being able to have EQ’s and compressors on the channels that need them and work like that is nice and it encourages me to record more, miss less magic, and get to an arrangement stage faster. Recording with OB is also seamless with not any latency that needs to be adjusted. I even stopped using my new MPC in stand-alone and run it in controller mode as a plug inside Ableton now, had i known that was also so seamless i would have started doing it a while ago. I still work on my machines like I’m out of the box but just have everything going through Ableton. win-win
Also using Rytm the (mk1) in a hybrid setup with Ableton. Overbridge is truly amazing for this workflow. I often begin by making a beat on the Rytm, then I add some FX in Ableton, as well as parts from my other synths, using Ableton as a multitrack recording machine and mixing desk.
Once I have a skeleton arrangement down in Ableton, I often track some of the more interesting drum tracks live with mutes and performance modulation, same for my lead synths. Then I do the mixdown all inside Ableton.
I use the Rytm or DT stand-alone for the creative idea finding process and once I have something useful I hook it up to Ableton. Multitrack it and create stems. And since a while I switched to Arrangement view completely at that point.
Good to see some love for this working method, as it’s my intention to follow that approx template.
I like the idea of working up patterns within the Rytm (+digitone+bass station) to break out of that perennial DAW-trap of ‘here’s the kick for 4 bars, now here’s the snare…’
But I definitely see myself doing final arrangement, mix, and master, within Ableton.
I have the gear. I have the room. Now I just need the time to setup.
I’ve also came to conclusion that I’m sticking with Ableton Live as a mixer / recorder for my AR/DN, I simply do not have enough space or even want to spend lots of money on trying different mixers/pedals/whatever, so I also trying stuff out with Live to figure out which approach is the best.
with OB there’s some slight delay in everything I record, but I don’t have a good audio interface to record multitracking otherwise.
I have a zoom H6 but I dislike it for it’s fiddly gain knobs, they are driving me mad, and it’s pretty high latency anyway when used as audio interface… my other audio interface is Scarlett Solo which has only 2 inputs (1 xlr and 1 trs), so no multitracking options except for overbridge for me… I do consider in the future MOTU ULmk5 or the new M6, which will give me 6-8 inputs which is plenty to use without OB, and then I can control the recording lag with midi offset, but at the moment OB is the best option to record in more then 4 channels for me, so I use it.
what I’ve learned from Martin’s videos is that he takes only the dry kick out of the master and leaves everything else in the rytm master, I like this approach for my shitty techno attempts and if I use the DVCO (mostly as bass) I also take it out and leave everything else in the master. that’s roughly 5-6 stems in total and it’s the easiest way to record the important stuff separated. I still trying to figure out if I want to record the wet master or turn off the effects before recording and then add them in Ableton. with AR it’s possible to re-record stuff as it can be a mixer with OB, so I can always just rerecord if I really want the AR effects.
what I do not like about the AR (or simply haven’t fully figured out how to overcome it) is that the it has noise, about -80db at idle, and if I gain stage my kick to be the loudest element at -15/-12db the noise really gets boosted afterwards and I don’t always like it.
I should try gain stage the dry OB input to be at -6 to close to 0db and later lower the volume with utility or just the channel volume… I’ll figure it out…
btw this is how my template I’ve setup for myself looks like, I have a group with OB for each device and all the individual channels ready to record if I want, but I usually watch their dry levels to figure out where they are level-wise, but if I need I can just grab one, remove it from the group and route to my MASTER bus and turn it off from the audio routing in the machine, when I turn on the template I have a simple “mastering” and monitoring chains ready to go with one click away, and I can record either both devices to stereo or each stereo instantly, or pull out some individual channels and record the separately:
Sounds like I’m about to setup a similar rig to that which you have, and I do have a Motu MK5.
I’m a total novice in real terms, so I might not be able to give you in depth analysis, but if I get things up and running I may be able to answer some questions as to how the MK5 handles certain things.
It is currently my intention to run the Rytm via overbridge for multi-tracking purposes, but if there are latency/technical issues I may add an ADAT interface (focusrite octo?) to the motu for the additional inputs.
I was hoping to start today/tomorrow, but who am I kidding? It’ll be next week at best.
the MOTU UL mk5 get’s high praise around here, I’m sure it’s a beast of interface, you have 6 line levels and 2 mic inputs ready to go, that’s 8 inputs in total. with my setup I can have DN as stereo, AR master + 4 individual channels be recorded instantly, which is great! and I can control the latency lag through the midi instead of having the constant lag of OB which I cannot control… I can still have OB for controlling the devices, things like LFO or automation, but I don’t have to record from it if I have a good interface…
Thank you so much for this thread guys. I literally, just registered to join the discussion. Got my AR mkii, connected it to E-Rm for midi clock and msgs though ableton 11 (beta, if it matters). Quick question - I got that OTO Boum (Red one) and I am thinking of getting Analogue heat mkii. Anyone tried them both? Which one would you prefer to marry to AR-mkii? Which one to kiil?
