Still Not Understanding Sample Chains

[IronCobra]

Hey everyone!

I’ve read as many posts about this topic as I could and am still not getting good results with my samples chains on the AR. Could someone help me figure out what exactly Im doing wrong?

Here are my steps:

1. In this example, I have 30 1 bar loops that are all around the same tempo natively. I’m warping them slightly into Ableton. If I’m understanding correctly, this means I can have 4 slices per each sample since 30x4=120
2. Each loop starts on a beat on the grid in Ableton. No spaces in between (see screenshot)
3. I’m exporting one large file using 48kHz 16 bit and importing into AR
4. At this point, only the first sample slice seems to trigger on beat. Most others dont start right on the down beat. When I change the STA/END params by 4-6, 4-8, etc it just sounds like a mess. I’ve made sure to adjust the ADSR to be short enough to cut off each slice in time for the next one. (See attached video). Im triggering a slice on trigs 1-9 which seems to be exactly 2 beats playing out (STA/END 0-2).

AR_SampleChainsIssue

I’m clearly missing a key piece of the puzzle here. My intentions and hopes are to be able to dial in random numbers in the STA/END params to get happy accidents and inspiration.

[IronCobra]

Alright, for anyone who stumbles across this post, I think I have it figured out.

I tried adding another 30 loops, for 60 beats total.

Now every 2 increments on the STA/END params plays part of the loop AND they’re all on time (in sync with tempo and play on the downbeat).

It clearly has something to do with the set up of the sample chain within Ableton, as well as math which I’m not the best at.

I assume at this point that if I add another 30 loops (90 total), it’ll get out of sync again. But if I add another 60 loops (120), it’ll get back in sync again.

[LyingDalai]

@IronCobra

if I add another 60 loops (120), it’ll get back in sync again.

Yes indeed, you get it.
There are 120 divisions (aka starting point) for a sample on AR: you have to deal with this.
Any number that can divide 120 will do.

You can of course have samples that are on several consecutive divisions.

[IronCobra]

Thanks man! I’m so glad it clicked for me, this is insanely fun to use.

[LyingDalai]

Now use Scenes to get different flavors of sounds, it’s rather easy to do and you can go from subtle to drastic changes…

[IronCobra]

Hell yeah man! I will, thanks for the guidance!

What are some of your bread and butter settings that you like to use for Scenes?

Would be great to explore if you’re able to share.

[LyingDalai]

FX mostly, but sample change is a nice thing to do as well.
I used to do this, cause I don’t own one anymore.
ST has filled the place ^^

[IronCobra]

Ran into another mind block here…maybe you can give some quick insight?

When creating short sample chains in Ableton, I’m noticing that the resolution of which samples can be played on the down beat is very low

For example, if I create a sample chain that’s only 12 samples long (one sample per beat), I only get 3 useable slices. One for every 36 Start Points.

If I use 20 samples, I only get slices, one for every 10 Start Points.

In both cases, I dont seem to be getting the actual beginning of each sample that I use in Abelton. Using the correct integers on the STA param, the samples play in time, but not in the way I intended when I lined them up beat by beat in Ableton.

The only solution I can think of is to just not use small sample chains.

For my specific workflow, smaller sample chains are what I want. Mostly to avoid filling up all the Sound Pool slots too quickly and to have multiple samples play back on a single track.

Should I avoid small sample chains? Unless I’m missing something here, they seem pretty pointless for what I’m trying to do.

[LyingDalai]

I am sorry I can’t test this anymore as I sold my Rytm a while ago.
I usually had long sample chains.

Try to understand what is going on, for instance sampling your voice “one / two / three / …” and taking the time to analyze what’s wrong, why it’s not aligned with your slices.
It’s not astrophysics, you should understand why it’s not working as you understand it, or maybe, understand how it’s working exactly.

[chapelierfou]

I’m not home to test, but I’m sure the problem comes from the way you arrange your hits in Ableton. On the Rytm side, there’s nothing tricky once you understood you have to use divisions of 120.

[LyingDalai]

@IronCobra

Using the correct integers on the STA param, the samples play in time, but not in the way I intended when I lined them up beat by beat in Ableton.

There is something wrong, like you think you did good but you missed a spot.

If you have two samples, they must be of equal length if you want them to be starting at 0 and 60 respectively.
3 samples of equal length: starts at 0, 40, 80.

Works also with different sample sizes: say you have two samples, the length of the first one is the double of the second one: you would use 3 virtual divisions, so starting points at 0 and 80.

[Octagonist]

Assorted tips:

When you export the chain, remember to leave space at the end, so the final sample is the same length (including trailing silence) as the rest in the chain.

It shouldn’t matter what tempo you set in Ableton, only that the sounds are lined up on equal divisions/beats/bars.

Two samples: STA 0 and 60
Three samples: STA 0, 40, 80
Four samples: STA 0, 30, 60, 90
Five samples: 0, 24, 48, 72, 96
Six samples: 0, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100
Seven samples wont fit
Eight: 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90, 105
Nine wont fit
Ten: 0, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 84, 96, 108
Eleven wont fit
Twelve is easy
Thirteen and fourteen don’t fit
Fifteen: 0, 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 56, 64, 72, 80, 88, 96, 104, 112
Sixteen wont fit

[Lizard-of-Oz]

@IronCobra

When creating short sample chains in Ableton

I’m sure you have your reasons for using Ableton, but just in case you aren’t aware, there are some dedicated tools for that, for example:

LopoChain v2 - Sample Chains for OSX

Hi I have updated my utility for creating sample chains. The goal is to have something visual and easy to use for creating sample chains. Get it here https://drive.google.com/u/0/uc?id=1huz6LHeNmLxHzXYN7Qj32Y6_l7HWrMp2&export=download Whats new: A bunch of new chain modes, for all sorts of use cases, see below for details Support for Octatrack both in slots and Audio Editor “Create Slice Grid” Support for Digitakt and Model:Samples (beta). Can load more samples than slots to the gui, sampl…

DigiChain - web app for making sample chains

DigiChain is a web app made to make the creation of sample chains as easy as possible for use on the Digitakt (and any other sampler that can slice-up samples). https://digichain.brianbar.net/ [digichain-v130_demo] v1.3.0 Changes Importing of folders - recursive search for wav/syx files (be careful with filesize/depth of folders with this!). OT slices import from accompanying .ot file. Show source folder path on list, filenames will now include this path in their name if present - joined f…

[LyingDalai]

I don’t have an AR anymore, so could you please check that the START parameter goes from 0 to 119 and not from 1 to 120? I am unsure.
If it’s the latter, you will have to correct your table.
If the former is good, I’ll have to fix my previous post.

Edit : OK, I checked the manual, it says

The extreme values of the range (0-120) are the very beginning and the very end of the sample, respectively.

So it’s like it’s 0-119 for your possible start values, if the manual is right and I understand correctly what it says.

I’ll get my post fixed.
Here is the tight table

sample nb		STA points
2		0, 60
3		0, 40, 80
4		0, 30, 60, 90
5		0, 24, 48, 72, 96
6		0, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100
7		n/a
8		0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90, 105
9		n/a
10		0, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 84, 96, 108
11		n/a
12		0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110
13		n/a
14		n/a
15		0, 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 56, 64, 72, 80, 88, 96, 104, 112
16		n/a

[IronCobra]

Thanks so much for the amazing replies, everyone!

I have a hunch what my issue might be, I’ll have to test it out later.

Am I supposed to be exporting a wav file that has all 120 beats selected, even if I’m only making use of some of that space and not all of it? For example, when I make my short sample chains such as 12 or 24 samples per beat, I only highlight the samples I use and export that. Maybe that’s my issue?

@Octagonist
@LyingDalai
@chapelierfou

[IronCobra]

Yeah, I’ll have to look into these. Thanks so much for the heads up! <3

[IronCobra]

This is great, I was actually starting to write down my own graph last night, which was based on my own (probably) faulty sample chain creation. Thanks for saving me the work and giving me the real numbers that should line up if I’m doing it correctly!

[IronCobra]

I think this is what I’m doing wrong. I only highlight and export the length/amount of samples that I use. Never thought about making all sample chains the sane length, regardless of how many samples are used.

[LyingDalai]

@IronCobra

making all sample chains the sane length

You don’t need to have every sample chain the same length.
You have to have samples of same length, that’s all.
So that the virtual divisions (STA points) are right on the attack of your samples.
I have been using the same long sample chains for a long time.
I tend to know them more and more, know which sample I need and I have everything available without having to look for it.
Maybe 120 samples is very big, but I strongly advise to go for relatively long chains rather than 5 or 6 samples.
Anyway, it’s the same trick every time : samples with the same length, so that the sample chain can be divided in a divider of 120.

[Octagonist]

@LyingDalai

Anyway, it’s the same trick every time : samples with the same length, so that the sample chain can be divided in a divider of 120.

This. In bold. And highlighter