I was able to load the songs I inadvertently saved, then save the kits, only properly this time 
So did not lose then after all.
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I seem to recall youāve been on and off about the Deluge over time. How you liking it right now? Is it still sometimes a beautiful mess or is it coming together?
Well, it came close to being sold a few times, but when I started playing it again it always won me back, and as you well know aspects of it are pure genius design, and make you wonder why everything doesnāt work like this, then other functions are a bit the opposite and you think WTF?
A part of my problem isnāt with the Deluge though, it is with me, I can go a few months of not using it and I forget how to do something basic and I end up running out of time, putting it away again. But a lot of the operations are so fast that it makes the others that are a bit obtuse all the more annoying. I stand by the stuff I always moan about it, those are genuine flaws that can really piss you off.
However, if using it as the main machine in a setup where you can give it the full attention needed, as plenty of Deluge users seem able to, then muscle memory probably kicks in and you are able to get used to it.
A simple example is cloning a track, it is brilliant, hold the track you want to clone, press another row, done - yet go into the kit editor and you canāt copy a kit row the same way, in fact I donāt even think it is possible to copy a kit row.
Another is the arranger, brilliant implementation, want a 4 bar clip to last 32 bars, just hold the head and hit the place on the grid you want it to end at, fantastic. But audio recording into arranger doesnāt have the same paradigm, if you could just hold a grid pad where you want to start, then hit the pad where you want to end and hit record it would be amazingly simple and fast, but not possible.
I canāt ever stay mad at it though, because some of the stuff it can do and the way you do them put it by far above any other piece of hardware Iāve ever used, the portability and completeness too are so great. I have decided to get rid of my Blackbox and Toraiz and put the Deluge in their role, which it can easily better, and not having to remember too much gear will free up some brain cycles to get properly to grips with it I hope.
I think the updates since you last had yours (waveform view, audio clips, arranger?) are really great, and you already know what a great company they are, I say go for it, from what I know of your working methods I think you will like it even more than last time. It feels more mature now, the synth section could still do with a bit of polish, things like envelope times, not enough mod sources/destinations, filter types, limited fx are still issues, although as you know it sounds decent enough, and is certainly useable, to say the least.
For me I think it is the best current hardware option to avoid using a computer DAW, the way you can record audio directly into arranger is a pretty unique feature as far as I can tell, the MPCs canāt do it from what I understand at least nowhere near to the same magnitude.
If I can get properly get a workflow with it I will almost certainly buy another one just for portable use, and keep the other hooked up in my studio, then just pop the card out to carry on working between couch/studio. If I canāt get it doing everything that I want then it is still a kick ass sample arranger/drum machine. (Note to self)
A bit of a long winded post
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Another thing that I love so much about it that I forgot to mention, the way that a project is completely self contained, yet it still allows you to instantly load another, so for doing a live set it is unparalleled. The instant loading, instant boot up, no shite unerasable factory stuff that youāll never use, unlimited sample length, unlimited tracks etc put it way ahead of MPCs (for me) I have come to the conclusion that I donāt seem to enjoy working with touchscreens.
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Itās a pretty desolate place.
For some reason I didnāt get notifications on your posts (I normally do from this thread) or I wouldāve chimed in.
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That was me and audio loop recording. I used to clash heads with it soooooo much but I sort of forced myself to keep using it as part of developing the prototype for my MIDI footswitch so now it feels second nature. Sort of 
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That was a fantastic answer. And you read my mind, haha, I am starting to eye it again 
the Boards of Deluge soundpack got me thinking, I was like āWhoa, those presetsā, and reading up on the additions, I did start to think that what is making me sell the Blackbox, is just the reasons that Iām finding the Deluge can do.
I remember why I sold it. Itās exactly as you describe it. Some stuff just didnāt make sense and my memory never managed to commit to it while others were so brilliant, Iām sure Iād recall them in an instant if I got one again. And as features added up, I started to get lost in everything it could do and an interface that didnāt seem equipped to do it.
But Iāve never struggled to learn hardware and I had the Dellie during a period of my life where I was exploring more and was still finding gear that spoke to me. Iām not there anymore, I know exactly what I want now.
But while Iām letting go of the Blackbox now I am giving the MPC One a go before I do anything else. Found one dirt cheap with 30 day return, so Iāll have it on trial. Never did much care for the Live, but people around me who felt the same about the Live, say the MPC One is really so much better, even if itās just a matter of hardware design - including the Live MKII, which is a great upgrade but still retains the Live layout and just doesnāt vibe in the same way.
Thank you for your elaborate answer, it really answered a lot of my wonderings and thoughts. Thanks.
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Can someone tell me if the Deluge requires MORE muscle memory than the Octatrack. As Darenger says if you dont use it for a few months you forget bits and pieces affecting your workflow. The same with the Octatrack as well recorded.But out of the two which is quicker to get back into the swing of things? Or maybe its an impossible question.
I always found the Octatrack easy enough to learn, once you get the structure (
) The Deluge I find 99% of functions quick and easy, but the ones that I specifically want a bit harder to remember, as an example to use it as a basic groovebox, synths, samples, drums it is very simple and fast to use, same thing for making an arrangement - probably faster than using a DAW.
Audio recording and editing are where it feels a bit rough around the edges (to me) it doesnāt have some functions like adding fades to audio, destructive editing and the ease of use and power of the Octatrack for slicing and edits, but then it has sample polyphony, some great playback options, 2 layers of audio for synth/drum samples, separate fx settings for each drum in a kit, direct recording into arranger and tons of other things Iām forgetting. The lack of a screen is sometimes an issue, other times not, thanks to the excellent grid.
No way can it replace the Octatrack or vice versa, but Iām fine with that, OT for crazy performance orientated mangling and playing phrases, loops and stems, Deluge for drums, synths and taking some of the load from the OT, I think they complement each other very well. I should add that the Deluge can get entirely crazy with samples too, but perhaps not with the fine precision that the OT can in such an easy manner.
If you like the OT you will probably like the Deluge, both powerful enigmatic genius that donāt inhibit creativity yet still have limitations and endless possibilities. Difference with Deluge is that it is much simpler to use in a basic way, but it isnāt limited to just that.
Edit: So basic stuff like programming drums, tracks, adding fx, creating a song or arrangement, editing the synth, etc are very easy to remember. It is the multi push/turn/hold stuff that can be tricky to remember but there are various guides and cheatsheets to help. The OTmkI was a bit similar at the start, MKII has extra buttons so no longer an issue on OT.
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Iām pretty sure I know where Iām headed with all of this. One damn solid keybed for my playing. Something like the Korg RH3 bed or something. No onboard sounds, no sequencer, no nothing. Just a solid, fine set of keys. And one goddam box to hook it up to, which I can take with me to work on the music when Iām done playing, and then be fine with that.
I got pretty far with the Blackbox for about a year. So I really donāt need more than this. But I need something that lets me write long and coherent sets, which I know the Dellie can (project structure is brilliant). And that makes sense in the long run to work with, and the Blackbox makes total sense like all the time, until that wall appears.
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Ironically, a set of keys that are just keys, are hard to find. Them controllers always have knobs and pads and stuff. I donāt need that. I just need a great keybed. Period.
Cheers. Which one has the least menu diving when creating a track? I think the Deluge maybe the winner here?
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Hands down the Deluge. In fact it doesnāt really have any menu diving - thatās the idea behind the shoftcut system design - all parameters are available at the top level by holding SHIFT and pressing the grid pad keys.
Iāve always found especially with cameras that the ones with the less menu diving are easier to create with or feel like using on a whim.
I found it difficult to read the LED display under bright light, so cut a piece of red acetate film to improve contrast, works great:
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Hah, @darenager - looks like you might be right. Iāve done extensive research on the Arranger mode now and audio clips, and if I just look at how I used the Blackbox and what eventually led me to stop using it, itās like the Dellie does all these things right.
Only thing is audio clips donāt seem timed to end on a perfect beat, theyāre more like live loopers, but as I recall, regular sampling can be perfectly timed with start and end points (I recorded a few live sessions with that very method when I had the Deluge back in the days).
Irony is, Iāve been asked to review it so Iām running out of excuses.
But I do remember why I sold it and when I browse videos, that feeling comes back to me. All those finger-twisting combos, split up over way too few switches and knobs. But a lot of people say the same about the OT and the MFB gear, and I never had a problem with those (quite the contrary).
@circuitghost I just sold my Blackbox too, for similar reasons to yours 
Iām probably biased but I think as of right now the only 2 machines that can be a genuine alternative to a using a DAW are the Deluge and OT, and if being critical both of them donāt make it as easy as it could be, yet both have it within their grasp to do so, it can drive me nuts
Both offer the ability to record long audio files and stream these from card but neither have the facility to do so simply without workarounds, on the OT you have to work out how to adjust the record buffer to record for a specified length then set RLEN to max and possibly then trim the audio, assign it to a static machine.
On the Deluge you have to work out in arranger when you want the recording to end and put a dummy clip at the end point.
The Deluge doesnāt offer much in the way of editing the file, such as applying a fade, which can be a bit limiting at times.
Still, at least they can do it, and Iām sure there is some saying about suffering for art that can be applied here
I think the various cryptic operational combos and finger gymnastics do become easier to remember with daily use, but it doesnāt alter the fact that they can be a source of frustration until muscle memory kicks in. Fortunately with the OTmkII this is no longer an issue for me, Iām not there with the Deluge yet though, but I am determined to get there.
But yeah, for most people using the Deluge in conjunction with a DAW or doing stuff that doesnāt require much in the way of audio recording there is little to fault it on, 90% of the stuff is super simple and intuitive, so worth reminding yourself of that.
And donāt forget the portability aspect, not to be underestimated when wanting a change of scenery and carrying on working on a project.
I look forward to your review if you do it 
have you tried the mc 101 or just the 707 Daren?
curious as to how youād compare the em & deluge.
I think the Deluge offers a great package, (and I love the companies dedication to their customers) but, as youāve said, there is lot of workflow things different things to learn. I found it difficult to get my head around the the looper and associated audio update.
For context, after my initial 2 day challenge of learning how to use an OT for sampling etc, itās always felt like a logical and intuitive process. I havenāt necessarily felt that way with the Delugeās audio workflow and options. Thatās just something to consider if you found the workflow a barrier the first time.
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