Waldorf M

The Lounge Other Gear
#978

They’re a very small company. They were also simultaneously working on the Iridium Keys and Quantum update. The M itself WAS made by Vlad. He asked Waldorf if he could do it, and they brought him on for the contract.

I agree, an updated manual would be great, but:

The release firmware was complete, with a complete manual.

Vlad was furiously updating and adding things to try and make everyone happy. (Easy to get caught up in this if you’re a dev that’s also active on a forum).

The current firmware is not a full release, and I’m sure once the new final release version firmware is done, the manual will be updated.

There is only so much one person can do at a time.

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#979

The multi mode has been problematic in every firmware update as far as I know. And this was an announced feature not something that was added later.

I think it’s fair to expect that major features used in the company’s description of their product should work

5 Likes
#980

The manufacturer put a product on the marked and asked a price, it doesn’t matter, to me, if they are a big company or a one man company. There is the product and the price.

After more than a year multi mode does not work, there are bugs, there isn’t a complete and exhaustive documentation yet.
They can invest in developing if the want, put one or two more developers, etc. They prefer to work on new products instead.

I don’t want to be a beta tester for more than a year after I spent 1800 bucks for a product.

I have many synths from moog, dave smith, access, elektron, etc: they worked at 90% since day one.

Looking at the virus Ti a 18 years old device with a state of the art plugin, waldorf M seems a big step backward.

I’ll probably never buy a waldorf product again.

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#981

Multimode did work fine at the launch though, at least for me, the current multimode tuning bug that was introduced during one of the most recent updates not fully sure which one though. I know some people rolled back to use multimode though.

Sounds like you have gotten lucky with Davesmith and Elektron or maybe I have been unlucky? but talk to any day one Digitakt owner and you will know how bad it was and how slowly it was resolved. Moog one sounded like it was a shit show for over a year and took until last year to patch some feature breaking bugs (that’s 4 years since launch), haven’t really kept up so not sure what bugs remain.

This isn’t really an excuse for these companies but realistically it seems that they don’t have have enough money to support proper QA teams… so the public ends up as beta testers or the synths don’t get made, seems to be the sad truth of it.

1 Like
#982

Yeah, it worked ok for me as well. I just found that I didn’t use it that much, and that the new features were WAY more important to me. And really, I haven’t tried or missed it since. I suppose I’d give it a whirl, and try to make use of it again once the new firmware is out. However, in the meantime, I’m making sounds that are too big for half my mixes anyway with one part. :smiley:

I mean, if someone bought it specifically because it has four parts, then I guess it would be disappointing to not be able to use the new features until the next release, but I honestly can’t see that being a common case. In this case, use the original firmware. Or just wait a little bit for the new one. Running release candidate firmwares should be considered less than supported, even though the dev is actually right there helping people anyway.

There are bugs in ANY product that uses software. Hopefully they get fixed. I guess it’s easy for people to point a finger at a synth that has one developer because it takes longer than they’d like for these fixes to occur.

Oh well, their loss I suppose. This is an absolutely stunning synth.

2 Likes
#983

Yeah, honestly the speed of support from Vladis has been more often than not faster than what I see in various closed beta groups I am in for other companies, you rarely have the advantage of being in direct contact with the firmware developer. Bugs always stink especially when they effect a large feature.

I am still not totally sold on the updated method for saving multi patches, I mean it is much better than what it was but not as good as I would like in a modern synth… I suppose it is a decent compromise as it probably wouldn’t be realistic for it to get a fully modern overhaul in that department. I always like making meaty 1 finger chords with the multimode though, mix and match the patches and tweak individually. Once updated I should try loading up some percussion samples though and see what I can get out of it though.

#984

The Ti is a completely different instrument.

The M was intended to be a modern version of the Microwave I. Which is does flawlessly, and gives it a much more usable interface, and then a huge new feature set. Not only that, but since its release it now does a lot of what the XT can do. It is a synth that people have been begging for for years. Yes, it’s a niche, but it does exactly what it was designed to do and then about 75% more.

Based on your 90% from day 1 examples, the M actually worked at 98%+ from day one.

If it’s not your thing, then that’s absolutely fine, but your post is assuming a lot of things. There have been bugs in the Release Candidate and experimental firmwares, but those are exactly what the name implies. Not release firmware.

Not every product needs a software plugin interface either. The huge modular movement over the past two decades is enough to back that claim up. Not that plugin interfaces don’t have their place, or aren’t interesting. But calling out the M for not having one is a bit silly.

If you need a software interface for your synth to be happy, there are plenty out there that do this. It wasn’t, nor will it be a feature of the M. (or most other synths actually)

There are actually minor issues with most hardware synths out there. Some are more invasive than others, and some may or may not even matter to certain sets of people. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that very few synths work 100% flawlessly from day one, maybe even to the end of supported life. But, these are musical instruments, not life support systems, so most of us just use them and get on with things. I don’t think any manufacturer intentionally releases a product with flaws. Most endeavor to fix them quickly. Some may not be able to fix them as quickly, and some may not be able to at all, or maybe there are other extenuating circumstances.

In no way would I consider the M to be beta testing using its customers. It provided a complete experience out of the box. Those customers that are a bit adventurous can try out newly intended features before the firmware is fully baked, if they happen to be following a specific thread on a single forum out in the syntheverse. It’s a choice.

I’m also not trying to persuade you to like it if you don’t. Just offering couterpoints.

Also, I just ran across this right after my post in the meme thread. :smiley:

Hehehehe

2 Likes
#985

The lady doth protest too much… Jk but you’re doing a lot of work to try to invalidate any critical opinions

Also the M is not ALL VladiS. He said himself something to the effect that the arp is a crappy tacked on feature that he didn’t want. Its just as bad as the Virus TI arp/sequencer as I remember it

1 Like
#986

First, I typed a few paragraphs. If that’s work…

I’m not trying to invalidate critical opinions. However, some of what was posted above was misinformation. I also stated that if it’s not one’s thing, then cool.

Also, yes, the arp isn’t that great. Not all arps can be like the Digitone. :smiley: That said, any arp that can arpeggiate over held keys up, down, etc. is technically a competent arp. It’s just that there are some exceptional ones out there too.

I do in fact love the M. It’s an amazing synth. I actually don’t see how someone could play it (with any competence) and the proclaim that it’s a bad one. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion. It would be good if those opinions were based on facts though.

I actually think that the 3rd Wave looks like a better overall wavetable synth along these lines. However, it’s also about triple the price and takes up a lot more space. That said, the M is incredible. The only thing that would be sad to me, is if someone that would love it, didn’t try it due to misconeptions. I don’t think it’s fair to call something “abandoned” when it’s clearly still being worked on and supported. I also don’t think it’s fair to complain about non-official firmware, and call it “beta testing on the users”. Everyone in the thread there was absolutely clamouring to try out new features with the knowledge that it was experimental firmware. I wouldn’t say it’s absolutely perfect, but it is exceptional in a world of synths that may not be able to claim the same.

Everyone is free to buy one or not.

I’ve been using Waldorf synths for decades, and my synth journey would be much less interesting if they weren’t a part of it. What is arguably one of the best synths of all time (the XT/XTk which is still highly sought after to this day) still has bugs in its last released firmware. Nobody cares. :smiley:

Here, I’ll throw out my own complaint about the M based on my subjective opinion, but based in fact. I REALLY wish they had put gain compensation in the resonance loops of the filters. The resonance control is a little, shall we say, unbalanced for my liking. It cuts low frequencies a little too quickly, and gets to self resonance a little too quickly. Putting in the gain compenstation would have required one OTA per filter (so 8 in total, plus 3-5 passive components). When an LM13700 contains two OTAs, that would only require four LM 13700 ICs per set of 8 voices and a handfull of resistors and maybe two capacitors per filter. So maybe $10-15 per 8 voices additional cost. Now I shall cry myself to sleep on my big pillow. :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, I may end up selling mine to get a Mask 1 when they’re available. Not because I don’t love my M, but because the style of digital sounds that the Mask 1 effortlessly spews forth are making me drool. :smiley: The only problem is that once again, I don’t really have the space for keys. Might have to tier it with my DNK.

4 Likes
#987

“Its just as bad as the Virus TI arp/sequencer as I remember it”

The Virus arp kicks ass. Options for rhythmic patterns.

1 Like
#988

It literally matters that once the product is released, they can afford a contractor for regular updates but can not hire fulltime employees for each product during its lifetime until it ACTUALLY hits EOL.

I am sure they have more broadly purposed sustaining engineers to oversee manufacturing runs, monitor for potential hardware quality concerns, and collect firmware details for future updates of course!

But sometimes the codebase is not going to be directly used for a branch of new products, and the additional R&D is not self-sustaining enough to employ a fulltime employee. That’s just biz.

People like to imagine the companies that make great products are Behringer-level massive with cities to host them, but most instrument makers are not that large.

Sing it! Sometimes I just need to leave the internet behind.

1 Like
#989

3rd Wave is definitely interesting, basically the DSI work flow in a PPG like synth… I do think other than the workflow the various enhancements dont actually make that much sense enhancing its wavetable features though. There is kind of just that element of it has more for the sake of more and toss in some VA oscs, while the XT filters and Mshaper feel like things that actually push wavetable synthesis further, samples lets you have a taste of waveterm sounds. 3rd wave does have onboard resynthesis but you have better control doing that on a computer if you are so inclined. I dunno 3rd wave maybe has more mass appeal, while I think the M has a more nerdy appeal, for people who care about stuff like asic bug, and are willing to put in a bit more work.

3 Likes
#990

Agree with all of this!

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#991

Sure, when I had it I just wished I could modify the patterns. Can’t have it all I guess

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#992

Re issues with the M:

If multimode still isn’t always working right (which I assume it isn’t, from the customer reports) then that’s a real issue. Multitimbrality was an original selling point of the synth—hence all the extra outputs.

As an owner, I’m happy with how the monotimbral aspects of the M came out, even if it took several iterations of firmware to get everything running smoothly. The developer went way past what was promised to try to please users, and added a nice range of digital filters and a kludged-together interface for loading short samples, in keeping with what some of the older gear did.

I do think Waldorf tend to end up over their heads, charging premium prices for fancy gear that isn’t always well-made (failing encoders on Blofeld, screen not attached right on some Iridiums). But I haven’t seen any build issues with the M, it’s a nice machine so far.

fwiw

2 Likes
#993

Anyone have tips for how they like to use the wave envelopes? I like to keep the envelope page open when I use them so I can see what is happening better, but I have trouble controlling them in a predictable results oriented way.

I assume that like any other envelope I need to have the position within the wave in a logical place. I have to start in the middle of the wave if I want to be able to modulate both up and down…

Does anyone just resort to leaving the env knobs neutral and using a different envelope or LFO instead?

I also sequence with the octatrack frequently and I realized the envelope looping doesn’t seem to work when I sequence it. It only works if I press down on a key

Curious to hear thoughts

1 Like
#994

Agree with this and sympathise with those who bought it with that in mind.

This is totally just me guessing but I imagine if added features are going to break anything in the process of being implemented, it’s likely to be the multi-mode - especially on a device with an intentionally weak CPU. If I was the sole person working on it I’d definitely be tempted to use my limited time to implement new features and fix other bugs then tidy up issues with multi-mode at the end rather than constantly having to return to it every step of the way only to find it broken again by the next fix or feature.

Waldorf do seem to have a bit of previous both for dodgy multi-modes and unfinished firmware so let’s hope they give Vladimir the time and backing to get everything where he wants it to be.

4 Likes
#995

At least after initial production they get adjusted to fix endemic issues like those?

As long as they support their products, I can deal with some annoyance. I’ve certainly balanced some frustrations with Elektron within and out of warranty, I still want to support them, and plan to eventually pick up a M. I suppose if they fix all the concerns someone will call it “abandonware” :wink:

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#996

Lol.

#997

THAT’S how they getcha!

2 Likes