Hey RubixGroove, I’d love a 424 MKIII four track for lo fi production, it’s something I’m going to invest in before I get probably a Tascam DP-24. Did you buy that 424 new? Regarding the ZED60, combining hardware analog mixer with digital I/O interface via bus is a brilliant idea. I use Mackie Onyx 820i via Firewire, nice sounding Perkins EQ and supports 2 Sends with 2 stereo Returns, which I route a MF-108M Cluster Flux and a MF-104M Analog Delay. I’ll do the same when I get a 424. Are the FX Returns stereo? You’ve got a great setup and I like the H4 for field recordings.
Thanks Emnine. 
Hey Daisuk, you were right in your first sentence, it’s a preference and at the moment my choice is to direct my audio creativity away from software-based instruments and recording.
I learnt music in the digital age and are not turning my back on it rather exploring more hands on control if that makes sense to you. I still run a high-end NLE and for video computers and/or file based systems end to end is perfect for creativity but not for audio. Yes you’re correct, I will need to bounce the master and I have no issues with that given I’m already in that domain, that is I open Audition and sync the timeline to Premiere Pro.
And as for the benefits of a dedicated multitrack, that’s why I’m asking the punters, the users of these machines to weight up my options. I want hardware control over my audio creation and the final step in that process is a multitrack recorder. Why play a virtual guitar when you can play the real thing?
Oh, by all means, I understand that it’s a preference, I’d just like to know why people prefered it to a computer, but it’s obviously a more of a hands-on experience. So, I see your point! 
I was actually considering getting one myself at one point, but decided a computer was more practical for mye use.
Well its a bit double… computers are fun… my first music was made on a tracker… and now 20+years later… i returned to a tracker… but…
When I use a computer… i have no reason not to go apeshit on all kinds of technical things.
one of the last tracks i made, had well over 60!! plugins on less then 5 actually tracks.
the other thing is… you can go from left to right, or right to left… start with the end. end with the beginning… as long as your cpu doesnt run out and you have to freeze stuff, “everything” is very fluid… this is nice… but its also very produced… (and i wouldnt be able to do some ideas without it)
then again…
if i use my harddisk-recorder unit… I have to start at the beginning… write my song like a layercake.
each layer builds upon the next… if whatever i make in the beginning sucks… the end result sucks…
Would i advice it to some 16year old that says : uncle dreammer, i wanna make music, just like you…
neh, probably not… i point them to renoise.com and give m a sample-cd… much more efficient/reliable/easy to learn… but for me… (and yes… this is probably a feeling/emotional thing) sometimes i just want oldskool feel like a 16 again type musical fun… instead of all these technical things… just be a propper musician… take my instruments and do something…
is funny… sometimes i get pure itb musicians in my little studio-room… they just dont have a clue how everything works… they have difficulties translating what they expect on their screen… and whats infront of them… funny, cause most daws are just virtual copies of “the real thing”
That’s a great variety of video programs you use, I find your subject weird but as a sound and vision creator myself, I appreciate the time and effort put into making even a short music video. You don’t take yourself to seriously and I think that comes across in your clips. Do you do any other styles or is it all 70’s - 80’s psychedelic techno?[/quote]
My subject weird ?!? interesting … i guess you mean the puppets…
my friends where to embarrased to feature in my clips… so i had to replace them some how.
the other thing is… i used to make stopmotion thingies when i was really young, with my dads camera… so its a wonderfull way to “feel like a kid” again… Its recognisable… I bet i am one of the few, that makes oldskool sounding techno in combi with puppets and really colourfull scenaries
and the last reason why i like the puppets… its repeatable… the more i tinker with it… the smarter i get… the more fun it is. so i can put my creativity into “what” instead of “how” …
- Sony Vegas I use to put everything together… so thats my nle. (for you none-video types, its kinda like the logic of video-programs… this is where you put multiple videosources and “mix m”)
- Blender I use to generate scenes/backgrounds… after a while i found out… its cold on your hands and knees in the garden playing with puppets… thats more a summer-hobby… this is also where the python comes in… i use it to script stuff within blender.
- Gimp I use, for all graphic stuff…and sometimes to make masks i can use in vegas… saves me lots of frustration, and it can be allot more acurate…
- VirtualDub i need to convert stuff… sometimes necesarry to swap things between programs…
And yes, I do take myself seriously it takes a big man to play with puppets and still be proud of himself… but yeah… it also makes me laugh allot. and i think its great fun to be able to laugh about myself… (i used to be pretty depressed for a while… so its nice i dont make myself cry anymore)
And yes, I do make other stuff then oldsounding techno… but i like it so much, that i usually end up putting allot of oldsounding techno flavour to whatever genre i try to make… so it ends up sounding like a dreammer song…
Isn’t it funny Dreammer how it doesn’t matter what we create we have a signature sound. An element that’s always me or you. Whether conscious or subconscious it’s there. The same goes for video too. We have a certain production style. When I got my camcorder I looked at Sony Vegas but I liked what Adobe had on offer. I like incorporating still images, graphics, animations and what not and Adobe at the time had a great bundle deal and I had the money. Adobe now have changed their licensing to a subscription based system where you get all their products for a monthly fee. So to enter Adobe now is as cheap as chips however you don’t own the license. Where as I own CS6 Premium Production but I payed a shit load for that but I’ll always have it.
the other thing is… you can go from left to right, or right to left… start with the end. end with the beginning… as long as your cpu doesnt run out and you have to freeze stuff, “everything” is very fluid… this is nice… but its also very produced… (and i wouldnt be able to do some ideas without it)
[/quote]
I’d like to add to this and agree with what Dreammer is saying. Having come out of a Pro Tools environment most approaches are non-destructive, you can vary pitch, length and time and this is audio, we haven’t touched MIDI. All these techniques makes you very indecisive. What’s working one day can be changed the next. Ultimately you don’t achieve your goal. It becomes stale, sterile and mechanical. What goes in isn’t always what comes out. DAW’s can polish turds.
I think, that if you try to make something… u use your own experiences as “a tool” a way to visualize stuff… when i was younger… hightec ultra hd super crispy wasnt available in nothing… So everything had this corny raw edge to it… So yeah, i think you can taste this in “my style” … in my first clippies and stuff i even used the same resolutions and all that… but that just look old and crappy… so i did upgrade resolution and added some hightec crispyness… enough to make it look “now” but not enough to loose that “rawness” … or atleast thats the goal So think a bit MTV-partyzone / MTV-chillout zone… (kids, who are reading this… there was a time where MTV actually broadcasted music… and was considered hip trendy and cool)
Sony vegas was basicly my choice, because there was some time i used sony acid as a compositiontool… so it was easy to translate my music-knowledge into videoknowledge
there was no difrence between using a piece of audio and mix it with another using automation+fx
or mixing pieces of videos with automation+fx … I didnt understand adobe… it was to “video-oriented” back in the days i knew little to nothing… Now I know some, so i might understand adobe… but why teach old dog new tricks… happy as a clam now (well not exactly. my render pc broke… but when i got budget again
I am not sure, i am a fan of subscription-based software… here is the deal:
I pay for software… and i do expect it to be “relatively bugfree” … so yeah some patches/fixes are nice… makes me feel taken seriously by the coders/compagny…
If that compagny makes a really big improvement… call it a new version.
if i had enough updates, and i feel your making me a better “toy to play with” and I am not broke.
YES i will buy the new version… so if they work hard enough… I will keep spending my money…
I fear, that with a subscription-based software… I keep on paying… for something they keep bugfree (they have to, else their customers leave quicker) and they say to roll out big improvements quicker… so there is more innovation and all that… because they dont have to wait for a “new version” but is this really so?? and will my workflow stay intact during the subscription?
I can upgrade blender for free (hooray for opensource) but sometimes they changed something i had to relearn… so it was in my best interest, to NOT upgrade, untill I was done with my stuff…
So I think i understand why adobe likes to give up subscriptions (less pirating, more steady cashflow… less deadlines… less overhead in packaging and all that) but I fear (this is a feeling, not something i can easily proove) it gives me less controll in how i use my stuff… (and thats the point. you didnt buy it… so it isnt your stuff)
When you brought up high-tec ultra hd super crispy I thought to myself, Dreammer, that is exactly the transition I’m in at the moment but in reverse. I’m downgrading my high-tec crispiness for an older style sound to gain that rawness without loosing too much quality. The same can be said for my video projects, high-tec digital high definition crispiness downgraded to look older, noisier, darker in terms of shade without losing quality. I was watching the Dave Grohl - Sound City documentary the other night and the premiss of the documentary was about the very subject of this thread, feel. Feel is being human, being human is to make mistakes, mistakes that shouldn’t be corrected because it loses the feel. Sound and vision is about feel. We’re not mechanical animals.
Ummm subscription-based licensing. I have to admit I did have my reservations. One fundamental question I asked first was if I brought a subscription would I surrender my perpetual license. Adobe said no, so I said you have a deal. Because Adobe have the market cornered. They have the tools. Previously Adobe divided the tools under a perpetual licensing model. How about instead of dividing the tools, we offer you all the tools under a subscription licensing model? Analogue time, Elektron sells four machines under a perpetual licensing model but you can only afford to purchase one machine, so you buy an Octatrack, that’s now yours for an eternity. You’ve grown to love your Octatrack and in turn Elektron but Elektron switches business models and now offers a subscription licensing model. That is, if you pay a monthly membership fee Elektron allows you to have all their machines. An Octatrack which you own but you also get an Analog Four, Machinedrum and a Monomachine. Is that a deal? Sure you can leave. But I love my Octatrack, I don’t want to leave. I wander what those other machines are like? If they’re any thing like the Octatrack they are going to be brilliant. Ahhh… snookered.
I have a mackie sdr 24/96. It’s a 24 I/O standalone unit. Similar to the MDR and HDR. It saves to an HD and saves the files as .wav. Perfect for mixing later on. You can do up to 24 tracks at 24/96.
Hey ricklaw, nice one, that’s one step away from a DAW.
Hey is anyone using the Zoom R16? found one mega cheap. Was gonna get a H4N but this thing can run on batteries and might be more useful at home.
I have a Tascam DP-004 but never use it anymore. There were some UI features that were unfriendly to me, but I forgot exactly what. It had something to do with either bouncing tracks to a master mix and/or exporting the mix track to computer so I could upload it or email it or whatever.
I was just told at the Apple Store that my 2007 Macbook Pro is about to “go vintage” - which means they won’t do repairs on it anymore after a couple of months. That’s a bit scary as that laptop is my main multi-track recording machine. I have Logic and Live on it, but prefer Live. The speakers stopped working on the laptop and the headphone out stopped working a month ago. Fortunately, I can still listen to audio by plugging in my USB headset. Still, the end is in sight for this laptop.
Thus, I’m now thinking about trying the hardware multitrack recorder route again. We obviously have someone here whose hardware recorder (his Yamaha) is likely outlive my laptop. Those Zoom R-series units look good for the price. I still have the following concerns about switching from Live to hardware recorder:
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Ease of editing audio. I don’t mean “fixing mistakes” where I screw up a guitar part or something. I just mean deleting selected portions of a track when necessary.
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Ease of importing audio. In Live it’s as easy as dragging and dropping a WAV file or something into a selected audio track.
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Ease of bouncing to master mix.
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Ease of exporting mix to computer.
As I said, #3 and#4 above were problems for me with the Tascam.
Tascam 488 mkII 
Yeah, I can run through my RME Babyface into Live 9 or Studio One 2, but it’s also very satisfying from time to time to just sit there with an old cassette recorder and mixer and jam out.
Since my pc and laptop died I use the Octatrack works great
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Necro-bump, I’m on a computer so much that I mostly noodle around on my analog mixer, never recording anything.
This is silly, and I know I’m missing out on some good jams.
What is a good, high quality ($500-2k range?) way to record digitally, decent converters and quick workflow with emphasis on workflow and convenience, the stuff I record is better than the nothing I haven’t!)
Loop-based editing would be cool, but ease of recording is priority, I can always throw my stems into Ableton eventually so long as I’ve got source material.
Edit: Seems the internet is suggesting Zoom 8n or MixPre10 II? Are there any other portable recorders I ought to consider?
…necro bump…?..cool creation…
for multitracking outside of a daw, i got this in use…
but puh…don’t watch the actual pricetag in euros…brexit made it jump up the ladder quite a bit…
but this thing is THE solution for bridging any gap between stage and studio…
a hardware recorder, an interface, a serious live mixer with lots of monitoring and group bus sub mix options…a rocksolid halfplayback player…
and the biggest bang for any buck if it comes to converters, their quality and their count in numbers…
don’t go for zoom…they’re great in field recorders…but all the rest is pretty obvious headheavy and lowprice segment…
another option might be tascams model mixer/interface/standalone recorder series…
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Sound Devices are basically king if you’re looking at quality recorders, but the Zooms are entirely workable too. Not a ton of editing onboard, but basic takes functionality — look at their music firmware. How many channels do you need?
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6 is probably ideal for simultaneous recording, can always bounce down using an analog mixer.
Thanks for the opinions!
The QU-PAC looks interesting, I wonder how the converters would compare to my Apogee element 88 interface (i could sell it to fund if comparable and works well enough on an older Macbook.)