Norns

Zifor · May 12, 2020, 9:27am

Does anyone know the max sample time for Norns? I only just thought about that today.

circuitghost · May 12, 2020, 11:22am

Not sure there’s a limit from the platform specifically, but the scripts I use, no one goes beyond 60 seconds and most go below.

But the Tape module, I’ve recorded sessions over ten minutes long in one take and there are scripts which do streaming.

So I think norns as a platform can handle most of everything. If there are scripts who do it in practice, possibly, but I’ve not come across anything beyond 60 seconds, except just mentioned Tape module.

Zifor · May 12, 2020, 11:51am

Thanks! I think I will have to pair mine with the eurorack module w/. I look forward to all my fates parts coming!

circuitghost · May 12, 2020, 12:00pm

Very cool

ogiobo · May 13, 2020, 6:20pm

I’m curious to know if you’ll be keeping your blackbox now? Or does the Norns & grid cover all of your sonic/compositional/workflow needs?

mbillz · May 13, 2020, 6:44pm

This isn’t directed at me, but I just sold my Blackbox to go all in on the Norns environment (+ modular + Elektron Cycles & Samples). Going to see if I can write a prototype for a small time synced sampling platform this weekend for the Norns which is the only thing I miss from the Blackbox.

circuitghost · May 13, 2020, 7:25pm

Dude you know I’ll bless you till end of time if you make this happen

circuitghost · May 13, 2020, 7:30pm

What @mbillz said. I’m going all in on monome norns now, but synced recording is a must for me. Until something on norns cracks that, I’m keeping the Box.

I also would miss the sequence - record workflow, since it seems unlikely an application on norns would do both. However, if the native tape module ever got synced recording, then there would be no reason for me to keep the Blackbox.

However, the Blackbox remains amazing. It’s just that for me, the monome stuff scratches that final itch I’ve been having for some time now.

circuitghost · May 13, 2020, 7:46pm

Whoa. Blackbox just got automated multi-sampling and fixed the polyphony issues. Dayum.

ogiobo · May 13, 2020, 10:24pm

I was seriously considering a blackbox at one point, mainly because of things that you highlighted on this forum- Having a focused and simplified workflow, and a freeform sequencer that allowed for polyrhythms and disk streaming. The main thing that held me back was its lack of sound design/sample manipulation options. I currently have an octatrack and an mpc live combo. I’m constantly sampling and sequencing back and forth between the two, all while using midi sync. Both satisfy different needs, but I honestly don’t care for the mpc live workflow or aesthetic and would like to replace it with another sampler. My main interests: something that can offer new ways of composing/sequencing, multiple ways of mangling and affecting (both for samples and live signals), polyphonic sampling, and ability to midi sync (either as master or slave) It seems like most of my needs can be found in the Norns, but I’m weary of making such a large purchase and then not vibing with with any of the available scripts. @circuitghost @mbillz Do you both feel like you’re finding scripts that provide an intuitive workflow (not unlike the blackbox) or is it more about adapting to the instrument, accepting its quirks? Sorry for such a lengthy response, I’m just trying to figure out if this is the right thing for me.

ogiobo · May 13, 2020, 10:26pm

I should add, I’d be approaching this only as a user of other people’s scripts. I don’t have any coding experience.

circuitghost · May 14, 2020, 5:14am

Man, that’s a tricky one. The Blackbox is a fantastic sampler and continues to be, but I’d say it’s the perfect storm of traditional, beat and loop making sampling (where a loop can still be a minutes long improvisational jam, though). It makes that process quick, fun and intuitive. It’s somewhat related to the MPC workflow though, so if you’re not digging the MPC, the Blackbox will remind you to some extent of especially older MPCs. However, it has much of its own character and that is what makes it unique, I’d say. It doesn’t compare to a more experimental sampler, though, and even if you quickly can chop things up, turn them upside down, twist them with fx and resample before grandma says it’s time for coffee, it’s not a platform that by nature leads to the unexpected. Paired with the Octatrack, it might make more sense than the MPC if you’re into that kind of way of approaching music but think the MPC is just too much (which I thought at the time I had one - I was like, what am I gonna do with all this shit?)

On norns - my pitch to CDM as I was reviewing the norns + grid was just that - what about all them people out there who just want a cool instrument? Don’t want to code, don’t want to learn, don’t think it’s cool to copy and paste script lines to get something to work? Is norns for them? Hell, I’m one of them. Is norns and grid for me?

It sure is. Many scripts are as mature as proper hardware products out there, be they specific or more general in what they do. So it’s not just a platform with curiosities. It’s for real. Most of them are geared towards more experimental stuff so it’s the opposite of the Blackbox. It’s not hard to go bonkers with norns + grid, but there are plenty of scripts who allow you do stay on beat and keep to your 4by4 if that’s what you want.

Norns on is own isn’t a particularly pleasent user experience, though, with three buttons and three encoders which follow no user experience standard. I would imagine it can be slightly frustrating. But more importantly, most of the better scripts just won’t work without a grid, especially the funkier ones. Cheat codes is where I get my Octatrack fix and it can’t be used without the grid. Timber and mlr are both versions of more traditional song structure and sampling, but especially mlr can quickly go to wild places, but not without a grid. The grid itself is daunting at first, it’s much of “What the hell is going on here?” Overwhelming, perhaps.

But as it falls into place, there’s a beautiful clarity around how the mature and quality scripts use the grid and suddenly, the lights aren’t justs lights anymore but a guide to your map to lovely music.

But it’s a substantial investment and monome gear seem to be polarising. It’s good that you’ve learned the Octatrack, it reminds me of that one, in a way. That one was also a “Uhm, okay, I don’t understanding anything” experience for me, for months. And then, once I knew it, I was like “Okay, but what am I gonna do with all this?”

I became fairly fluent with norns + grod quickly, focusing on a few scripts which I felt spoke to me. But I’m still in “But what am I gonna do with all this?”. However, whenever something comes out of it, it speaks to me in ways music haven’t for awhile. So I know it’s going somewhere. Just don’t know where.

But as I wrote in my review, an educated decision is recommended. If you’re doing some googling, I recommend checking out cheat codes, mlr, timeparty, otis and takt as scripts. In different ways, they show the strength of the platform to a large extent.

circuitghost · May 14, 2020, 5:21am

I’ve made a little playlist of monome norns + grid tracks I’ve made so far. Some of them are just strange, some are more straight forward. If you wanna know the process behind them, @ogiobo just ask, happy to help:

ogiobo · May 14, 2020, 4:50pm

Dude, thanks for your in depth response! You bring up a lot of good points about both devices. As far as the blackbox is concerned, the fact that it’s within a similar enough paradigm to the MPC doesn’t bother me. I actually like the fundamental aspects of the MPC workflow and even started out with an MPC 1000. The MPC Live is just so bloated with features and menu-divey that it feels like I’m navigating a computer (probably cuz it’s a computer!) I really like the idea of something with a more streamlined workflow, which the blackbox seems to have.

The way that you describe the Norns and grid setup, it gave me this idea of a giant world filled self-contained islands that are all functioning on their own terms. Navigating that world sounds really exciting, but also pretty daunting. I guess I have to really think about my priorities. I don’t want something that will take me away from my Octatrack workflow. I love that thing, and it makes a lot of sense to me. My music is fairly diverse but is decidedly experimental. I’m more influenced by komiche, minimalism, and orchestral music than proper 4/4 beat music, but I’ve been slowly moving towards this minimalist orch-pop muzak sound, where I actual sing.

I guess what I ultimately want is a way to get really weird but also a way to wrangle it in and compose a proper song, and then be able to play back stems of that song while being synced to the octatrack (for performances). I’m gonna look into all of your suggested scripts for Norns and try to remain clear in my mind about how it would function in my workflow. I must refrain from making a decision based purely on the beauty of the thing! Thank you for time. I will report back.

circuitghost · May 15, 2020, 4:59am

Well, from what you’re saying, it does sound like the norns and grid are both geared up to offer you a lot of options. It truly excels at doing out there stuff very quickly. That’s another way in which it relates to the Octatrack by spirit, if not by design.

I returned to my Blackbox yesterday to check out the new firmware update. 1010 continues to impress with their dedication and versatility in improving the Blackbox. It now does polyphone really well (it didn’t before) and auto sampling is fantastic.

I did, however, quickly return to my norns and grid again. For now, the traditional but appreciated constraints of a more beat-oriented instrument isn’t the fix I need. But I’d be hard pressed to find a better option when I do need it, so I’m not letting go of the BBox just like that.

ogiobo · May 15, 2020, 10:12am

I’ve watched quite a few videos on many of the scripts that you recommended. The combination of the Norns and the grid is strange, and looks sort of esoteric in execution, maybe even more so than the octrack? I’m definitely a fan of the sound/sounds being created with it. I’m not sure if it’s in the nature of its design, or if it’s a certain type of person who finds Norns appealing, but a lot of the sounds I heard had a similar quality, albeit a very beautiful quality… it’s hard to come to any conclusion about whether or not it’s for me…

It’s funny, the simplicity of the blackbox seems more appealing than ever. I think I might just take it easy for a bit and slowly sell the things that I don’t use, and focus more heavily on the things that I do use, and then I can have a good chunk of change, a simpler setup, and clearer mind, which is always a good place to be when making gear purchasing decisions… Thanks for your input. I’m excited to hear more of your creative output as you explore your new set up.

circuitghost · May 15, 2020, 1:25pm

Makes total sense. With norns and grid, you kind of have to relearn and rethink most of what you’re used to. Not necessarily a step one wants or needs. So to let it mature can’t be a bad decision.

mbillz · May 15, 2020, 4:24pm

@ogiobo TLDR: I love the Norns apps, but I do think they require a shift in the way you approach making music, sampling, and sequencing. I also think I’m biased because I work as a software engineer.

Brain dump:

I just sold my Blackbox a few days ago.

My intention with the Blackbox was to use it like SP404 - recording loops and sounds from my modular to trigger. After purchasing it, I realized it would be a great, minimal live setup where I could live easily live loop my voice in sync with my guitar pedals and trigger some sequences. I was only able to play one live set with it pre coronavirus, but I found the touch screen a bit fidly for that purpose.

I had been eyeing the Monome world for a while (part aesthetic lust, GAS) and I’ll admit I didn’t fully understand it prior to going all in on a Norns, Arc, and Grid. I had been a previous Organelle owner and even though I program for my day job, I found that writing code in PureData for the Organelle and its entire ecosystem very un-user friendly (it seems that the Organelle has developed on this front since I abandoned it). So I was nervous after my impulse Monome purchase.

Since then I’ve found a whole new musical world. The Lines forum is extremely refreshing - there is a massive plethora of information contained in there about expanding your musical abilities both with gear and without. I find the Norns itself super intuitive - the OS feels way more mature than I anticipated. There is definitely a learning curve, and as @circuitghost mentioned, the lack of buttons & knobs does mean there is a good amount of menu diving. But even in the time since I purchased it, there has been big steps forward in terms of reorganizing the UI.

Part of my enjoyment of it though is that I was able to adapt to writing apps for it in Lua pretty quickly. I haven’t published anything yet, but I’m REALLY enjoying the ability to think of an idea and then get it sketched out pretty quickly. Without going too deep into it, they did a great job of setting it up for someone with programming experience to dive in.

In terms of Norns apps - the thing I missed most about the Octatrack (which I sold years back) was mangling the hell out of samples. But the Octatrack workflow didn’t vibe with me. The Monome offers multiple apps that I find very user friendly that specialize in wild sample mangling. I’ve really taken to Otis which is modeled after the Cocoquantus.

I found that the multitude of apps covered anything I’d need with the Blackbox. Timber (a script @circuitghost has already made some great music with), pretty much covers what I was using the Blackbox for live except the looping which I’m trying to write an app for. I thought the Blackbox was a great product, but I found the overlap to be too much to continue to hang onto.

Apologies - don’t have time to organize my thoughts very well, but I hope there’s some helpful nuggets in there.

circuitghost · May 15, 2020, 5:50pm

That is EXACTLY how I feel about the norns and grid as well. Once live looping is there, my Blackbox probably goes.

ogiobo · May 15, 2020, 7:37pm

Thanks for your in-depth response! Yeah the Norns and the monome/lines community seems pretty cool. From what I’ve seen, there’s lots of smart, helpful people who continue to add new things to the Norns Script ecosystem. It seems like part of the investment in this gear is being able to experience and participate in an ever-evolving project- to be able to find the scripts that work for you and/or make your own (if your into coding) and delve deep, while always having access to new scripts if you fancy a change in your workflow. I really like that. It seems like one could continue to explore new musical ideas/approaches for years to come, all with the Norns/grid setup.