Question: Is linear midi recording possible?

Elektron Gear Octatrack
#1

Just a practical question that may be of interest for others too …

Can we use the midi sequencer of the Octatrack to record midi incoming data in a “linear” way?

Background:

In my live setup I want to play live on a keyboard and record the midi data to one of the midi tracks and after the phrase is recorded keep it looping along with the other tracks of the Octatrack.

BUT may playing of the keyboard is sometimes faster than the standard note-to-note resolution seems to be and the recorded track misses the one or the other note.

It seems that there can only one live played note exist in one Trig at the same time. Is that the reason of missing notes?

As a workaround I just have speed up the sequencer track to double speed, but this does not solve the issue, works only to it’s limit, and it shortens the phrase to the half of time.

Is there a better workaround, or a setup option that I missed?

Could Elektron think about a “midi-machine” that would allow linear recording and replay a recorded midi-track like the Pickup Machine? This would be great to have!

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#2

No, this is not possible.

All Elektron devices are essentially step sequencers, not “traditional” MIDI event sequencers.

If you need to do the kind of sequencing you’re talking about in hardware, then you might want to look into getting an MPC (the MPC-1000 is great value, especially with JJOS2X), an Alesis MMT-8, or maybe build a MidiREX.

There are obviously other options, but these should give you an idea of what‘s available.

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#3

If you un-check the QUANTIZE LIVE REC setting in the PROJECT > SYSTEM > PERSONALIZE menu, “notes will be quantized according to the micro timing resolution, which is 1/384 steps.”
However, this still may not be sufficient for your needs - the Octatrack is in essence a souped-up step sequencer.

#4

@ t
thanks for your advice. Just a short question about the machines you mentioned. Do they also support “pattern” oriented work?

This may be a stupid question and a shame, but I never had one of those in the studio.

Just to clarify this … I love the Octatrack and the Elektron Step-Sequencer concept is excellent at what it does! It’s a fixed asset in my setup now …

… it’s only about to use it for linear midi recording too or to add something new that might fit this special need better. This new gear should be as easy and intuitive as possible.

#5

Thanks, checked it, was already un-checked.

Well, I will have to do some more research. May be I am crazy to go for hardware, but after having unstabilities with software solutions I try to get away from computers in live situations.

To have something like Abelton Live or better NI-Machine in hardware would be perfect.

#6

Thanks, checked it, was already un-checked.

…[/quote]
If you check that setting, notes will be quantized to the 16 sequencer steps, which is not want you want. Un-check the setting for better sequencer resolution.

#7

@ t
thanks for your advice. Just a short question about the machines you mentioned. Do they also support “pattern” oriented work?

This may be a stupid question and a shame, but I never had one of those in the studio.

Just to clarify this … I love the Octatrack and the Elektron Step-Sequencer concept is excellent at what it does! It’s a fixed asset in my setup now …

… it’s only about to use it for linear midi recording too or to add something new that might fit this special need better. This new gear should be as easy and intuitive as possible.[/quote]
The MMT-8 is purely linear, the MidiREX is basically a looper.

The MPC-100 supports a pattern-oriented workflow, but in a different way than you’re used to from the Elektron boxes.

One thing that makes getting into the MPC-100 a bit complex is that you can either use the standard firmware from Akai, or you can go for one of the JJOS “after market” firmware versions that greatly enhance the functionality of the MPC-1000.

Especially the JJOS2XL version of this provides a lot of enhanced and additional functionality that I feel is a great addition to an “Elektron sequenced” setup.

However, even though the JJOS firmwares are intuitive and well-designed, the provided documentation is not very great. The reason for that is that the developer of JJOS is based in Japan and writing well in the English language isn’t exactly one of his strong points.

On top of that, most of the third-party documentation and tutorials for the MPC and/or JJOS are mostly focussed towards hip-hop production.

Having said that, with a bit of effort, it has proved to be an excellent addition to my Elektron boxes for me in terms of sequencing flexibility. Also, it’s pads are much, much better than those on the RYTM.

Oh, and you can get one rather cheaply second-hand. :wink:

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#8

@ t

You are right, I have to research deeper in the MPC world.

Inbetween our postings I got some news that are very interesting …

During the MS Build Conference 2014 a “prototype” of a new MPC seems to be in the pipeline that could be a stand alone machine after all.

… did you know this? Might be worth to keep track of this.

#9

Yes, I’ve seen that video before. No offense, but I think this won’t ever actually get released; the demo is clearly just a marketing effort from Microsoft to interest developers in licensing their current variant of “Embedded Windows”.
IMHO, Akai very much isn’t what it used to be. They haven’t released a standalone MPC since 2008 and are now clearly focussed on the controller/audio interface/DAW integration market.
On top of that, an MPC-1000 with JJOS2XL is lightyears ahead of a vanilla MPC-1000 running Akai’s stock firmware. It really is almost a completely different product. :slight_smile:

#10

Here are some demos that give an idea of the grid-editing and pattern features in JJOS2XL:

#11

You might just be right about a release. Could be a marketing thing only.

So I will have to keep checking at eBay for a while. My first attempt did not get a lot useful hits. Maybe this gear is of a “have it - keep it” sort of.

#12

Where are you located? A local synth forum or Craigslist if you’re in the US might be a better place to get hold of one. You can also post a “wanted” message on this forum.

#13

Thank you so much for the video links. I got the concept, not too hard to get used to it, I guess. Would fit to my workflow.

May a ask an other question, because the videos are more about “step-sequencing”.

What I want to do is the following. I have some hardware synths connected with the Octatrack via a flexible midi-matrix and I would like to set-up a live-gear, where I can build up live “step-sequenced” and “linear-sequenced” patterns on the fly creating the track.

I would like to play the synths using their own keyboards and have one/two “midi-recording” device(s) ready to take the musical idea at any time as a synchronised pattern (like a looper) and play it back.

The track length of 4 to 8 bars, eventually 16 would be enough. Long solo tracks are not inteded to be recorded. It’s more about getting some synths to play various patterns and one synth is taking the lead. But all should be ready to changing the roles.

The reson for this is simple. Specially my analog synths sound much better, if the sound hits the mixer directly without any A/D-D/A sampling/conversion in between.

Actually I do this with my Octatrack in step-sequencing mode, everything works perfect, when I play at a “slow enough” tempo.

Would a “real-time linear-midi recording/looping” be practical with a MPC-1000? There is no time for “editing”. Hit a record button, get the take of a synth, stop recording automatically - say after 4 bars - loop it… :confused:

EDIT: I tried this - in principle - with NI-Machine and it works - in prinicple. But there is a problem that Machine does not support external gear reliable enough. It just skips notes, get’s struck, does not support more than one midi-port. In the studio - ok - live absolutly no-go. That was the reason to get an Octatrack, after all. :wink:

#14

Where are you located? A local synth forum or Craigslist if you’re in the US might be a better place to get hold of one. You can also post a “wanted” message on this forum.[/quote]
Germany - I also watched for “worldwide”. Not too much, at least today.

BTW thank you very much for your time to help me, highly appreciated!!!

#15

Yes. For this you’d create a new sequence (equivalent to a “pattern” on an Electron device) with a length the number of bars you wish to record and set it to loop. Then you can hit play and go in and out of recording or overdub mode whenever you want.
You can record tracks for different instruments, but you can also record different takes for the same instrument in multiple tracks by setting the MIDI out channel for these tracks to the same number.

#16

Check the Yamaha QY700. Aside from the minor down-side of using floppy discs for storage, it’s the best dedicated hardware midi sequencer and goes long way towards being Ableton in a box.

Except with better clock and resolution.

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#17

Yes. For this you’d create a new sequence (equivalent to a “pattern” on an Electron device) with a length the number of bars you wish to record and set it to loop. Then you can hit play and go in and out of recording or overdub mode whenever you want.
You can record tracks for different instruments, but you can also record different takes for the same instrument in multiple tracks by setting the MIDI out channel for these tracks to the same number.[/quote]
Than the MPC is EXACTLY what I need. Thank you for this clarification, saved me a lot of research time - and reading manuals.

Now I have only to find one … best in mint conditions … :wink:

#18

Just checking, as some of this sounds intriguing … The OT can record at 32 notes per bar (2x), the A4 16 (if you doubled the tempo and chained patterns you could increase this) however, at its core the OT can only record 16 notes per bar, irrespective of the quantising if you play at 1x speed, so if you play notes too frequently, the OT may miss them, even if you only play 16 notes per bar, it’s a matter of when you play them within the window of each trig on the OT … That’s the OP problem

So are we (t) saying that the MPC can arbitrarily record many more notes per bar and at an increased resolution, including chords etc, a bit like you could in a DAW if you turned quantisation off, that sounds very flexible, is that aspect unique to the OS upgrade ?
It’s certainly a more transparent way to record performance nuance especially if you can record at increased note density (and quantity) and polyphonically and quantise to taste

#19

Yes. This is not unique to JJOS, it’s the same in Akai’s firmware.

In terms of sequencer, you can do what you can do on a “regular” software MIDI sequencer you’d run on a PC.

As I said before, the Elektron boxes are step sequencers, the MPC is what you could call a “MIDI events” sequencer.

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#20

That’s exactly the limitation - no complaint about it - the Octatrack was never supposed to do it.

I also loose CC information, if played live and quickly. If two midi events (note or CC) happen to fall into the same one “time-slot” - I think this might be the time/duration of a single Trig beeing active - the second survives and kills the first.

Good news is, if played slower but syncopated, the time/grit resolution of the Octatrack is sufficiant to get the groove perfectly. Only if the density of notes or events per time exceed a critical limit, events get lost.

My work around for devoloping the tracks now is that for “slow” patterns I use a midi track but for the “too-fast” patterns an audio track. That keeps me going for the moment, but is not the perfect workflow.

After some hours of research I think that a MPC-1000 or MPC-500 could just fill the gap :wink:

But wouldn’t it be possible to upgrade the Octatrack OS/sequencer with a function, that would allow to record and play back “linear-midi-recordings”? Maybe somebody of Elektron could chime in? That would be a killer feature.

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